What’s Unsaid | Is it time to declare a humanitarian crisis in the US?

Ali Latifi

Today on What’s Unsaid: Is it time to declare a humanitarian crisis in the US?

 

Bernie Sanders 

We are living in a moment of extraordinary danger. We’re living in a moment with a president who has no understanding or respect for the constitution of the United States.

 

Latifi

Senator Bernie Sanders recently issued this warning to a crowd of nearly 30,000 in Folsom, California. Our guest today was there. 

 

Carlos Menchaca

I heard him say those words. He speaks to a sense of danger that I feel personally. Even just like preparing for this, I was thinking: Am I going to say anything that's going to get me in trouble? 

 

Latifi

Former New York City council member Carlos Menchaca ran for mayor as a Democrat in 2020. He is an immigrant rights leader who has most recently been in El Paso gathering stories of migration across the US border from Venezuela and other countries. 

 

Menchaca

To get me in trouble now means that I can potentially get deported, removed from my citizenship of this country.

 

Latifi

Menchaca is also a participatory democracy practitioner who trains newly-elected officials to build civic trust. Right now, he feels much is at stake.

 

Menchaca

I do think we're in danger, because I'm thinking, as I prepared for this podcast, when am I going to become a target? Is my phone being tapped already? Because we're not talking about a fine - where I'm going to get a $50 fine for being a jerk to the President - I might disappear.

 

Latifi

Anywhere else, experts might describe what they see in the US – the daylight abduction of Columbia University student activist Mahmoud Khalil. Mass deportations with no due process. Homelessness at a record high. A growing number of outbreaks of childhood infections like measles, mumps and whooping cough – as clear humanitarian issues. They might say such a country – which has seen anti-government revolts, or that is unable to support its people during major disasters, like hurricanes or wildfires – is in the middle of a humanitarian crisis.

 

Menchaca

Oh, so this is what I've been thinking about a lot. It's like, when is the UN going to come in? 

 

Latifi

This is What’s Unsaid. A podcast by The New Humanitarian where we explore open secrets and uncomfortable conversations around the world’s conflicts and disasters. My name is Ali Latifi, staff editor at The New Humanitarian. 

 

So, on today’s episode: Is it time to declare a humanitarian crisis in the US?

 

Latifi  

All right, Carlos, thank you so much for joining us.

 

Menchaca 

So great to be here with you.  

 

Latifi  

Do you think that Trump alone is the central problem to all of this?

 

Menchaca  

I don't think this is a Trump thing. And I'm pulling from my time up here in the woods, I'm seeing all these mushrooms kind of sprout and bloom. So, I think Trump is that mushroom that kind of pops up out of this big, underground network of fungus. And it's not the good fungus, it's the kind of fungus that's wanting to kill us. He's that manifestation of this big grid of underground, long-time forming networks that have been thinking about this for a while, that have been so efficiently integrating into our local races, our school boards. They're taking over. They're better planners of their thing that they're doing: racist, white supremacy, capitalist. They know what they want, and they want to keep America white and not only that, but if you're not white, you're gonna have to ensure that white still leads. That's the white supremacy. But no, Trump is not like the only guy. He just happens to be at the right place, at the right time, 

 

Latifi  

Do you think that it's exclusively a one-party problem, or is it sort of a larger, more holistic issue?

 

Menchaca 

Well, I think this is all just in a bigger way, capitalism being the kind of heartbeat for our country, and this has been a long time coming for the United States. This is not a one-party problem. This is a two-party system effort and I'm kind of seeing this - again, this bloom - this bloom of where we are. This, like protectionism, this nationalism, populism, the kind of populism that is rooted in racism, and as a brown, Mexican, gay person, the parties have just derailed, and that's what I'm feeling as a danger from every, every party. The whole system is corrupt. 

 

Latifi  

One issue that's really sort of exemplified the danger that you've been talking about is this back and forth between the Trump administration and the Bukele government in El Salvador over a man who was deported and is currently locked in a Salvadorian prison. There's questions about the legality of his deportation. What is your take on all of that, and what you think it says about the situation, especially given recent experience in El Paso?  

 

Menchaca  

Well, the unfortunate nature of human history is that we like these strong men to come and save us. And that's El Salvador's kind of current history, and that's ours as well. We're not immune to any of that as Americans. We're human. I think this is a human condition. So, what I see is this unfortunate partnership. It makes sense for him to be able to export the kind of capture and imprisoning of people who are against Trump, and this guy has been getting away with it in El Salvador for a while. This is not a new thing. The new thing is that now the United States is cooperating, and this is just in the last few months as the Administration has shifted.

 

Latifi  

There's two cases that seem very big in the media right now. One is this Kilmar Abrego Garcia story, and then the other is the Mahmoud Khalil one. And there's been a lot of criticism that politicians on the left will speak out and even go to El Salvador, but not really say much about Mahmoud Khalil. Do you think the political response is different because Mahmoud Khalil was a Columbia University graduate student with a permanent residency who was speaking out against the genocide in Gaza, which you know, essentially, both parties in the United States seem to be in support of - by and large - as compared to Abrego Garcia, being a man from El Salvador who allegedly originally came in undocumented, and then eventually was given documentation, and then was detained on dubious charges.

 

Menchaca  

Yeah, I think that you're right. There is a difference. The political class has not necessarily gone and found him. I think he's still in Louisiana, in holding at this point. You know, Chuck Schumer from New York isn't running to Louisiana. No, I think you're right. There is a difference in the politics, and I think that difference is about the United States as a partner with Israel - and we saw that during the presidential campaign from the Democrats, and we're still seeing it now. I think because Trump has taken over the news cycles, we're not even seeing the kind of destruction that's happening in Gaza right now. Some Israeli friends keep sending me stuff that's happening on the ground there. The people are rising in Israel, but that doesn't get talked about in the press too much. So yeah, you're right. There is this kind of suppressed conversation, and almost like activation of the political class.

 

Latifi  

So, we've been talking about the current trend of unlawful detentions in the United States, and potentially now, charges that could be carried out against US citizens as well. But as someone who has lived in Afghanistan for the last twelve, thirteen years, I've been seeing and hearing reports of unlawful detentions carried out by the US or US-backed governments in other countries for so long: under Bush, under Obama, under Trump. Do you think that the average American understands the only difference is that now it's being imported within the US borders?

 

Menchaca  

Well, to that, I'm going to take you back to the 1960s. This idea that ICE - I mean, ICE is a newer version, but - INS, back in the day, La Migra, the immigration enforcement that was alive and well on the border in Texas, would round up workers, even if they were American citizens. So, my mom was born in the United States, has American citizenship, and she was rounded up. Literally, because she didn't speak English that well. She was born in the United States, but was raised in Mexico, but worked in the United States. I mean, this is just how fluid it used to be. So, she would tell me these stories of just getting deported and being an American, and they didn't care. My grandma was also a Mexican citizen, but half her kids were born in the United States. You're going to see this as a similarity to some recent news. She was called in, quote, unquote for her citizenship interview, and she shows up with all her kids, because she thought, you know, it's important for them to know that she has kids here that are American, and they deported the whole family. Back to that idea of a blooming moment for Trump, this is something that has always been in the system, and really, motivated by race, motivated by nationalism. This idea that even Mexicans are part of this machine. There are so many Mexicans in El Paso that are Border Patrol that are pushing back because they're not Mexican, they're American. They're not even hyphenated. So, this is something I've grown up with.

 

Latifi  

So, this is the thing you're talking about it being an overall trend. And I remember you being very critical of Obama being - up until that point - the president with the highest number of deportations. So, do you notice a difference in the reaction, in terms of the tone to Trump's current policies and everything that preceded him?

 

Menchaca 

Yeah, and it's like, one, we're forgetting. Two, we're getting this like wash - this Democrat, wash - that like they’re for us: people, brown people, poor people. And it's just not true. This is a consistent nature across both parties, and it's just always been here. Now, we're just kind of moving with a lot more fierce action and really anti-constitutional, counter to constitution actions. He wants to break the system. It's very clear, very, very clear.

 

Latifi  

If the system is broken, do you think it's possible to put it back together when someone else comes into power, or is it like…like, I've asked people this about the dismantling of USAID and the ending of the funding of Voice of America and Radio for Europe and also the Department of Education? Are these things easy to undo, or is it, once it's done, then you have to go from this point forward?

 

Menchaca 

The way that I - in my practice - this is me being a legislator, activist, organizer - I think about trust, and I think about trust in a way that it is built, and trust takes time. Trust is something that I think democracy really requires. So, if people don't trust the system, don't trust democracy, don't trust the government, the government that's kind of decaying and getting destroyed, it's going to take a while to come back. It's not going to be easy.

 

Latifi 

Another thing about this idea of trust and identity, something that I've noticed is sort of how politicians talk about migrants and refugees. So, for instance, you have someone like Trump saying they're not sending their best. They're sending killers and drug dealers and rapists and so on. 

 

Donald Trump

We have some bad hombres here, and  we’re gonna get them out. 

 

Latifi 

And you had Biden during his State of the Union talking about an undocumented immigrant killing a US citizen.

 

Joe Biden

Laken Riley, an innocent young woman who was killed by an illegal.  

 

Latifi 

…which he got a lot of criticism for, and then you also have recently Jasmine Crockett from Texas, saying, like, Oh, we need immigrants to do our cheap labour. 

 

Jasmine Crockett

The fact is, ain't none of y’all trying to go and farm right now. You’re not. We’re done picking cotton. We are. You can’t pay us enough to find a plantation. 

 

Latifi 

So, when both sides seem to have this really negative view of people coming from Central and South America, is it possible to build that trust, and how does that impact how both parties work towards solving what they see as a crisis?

 

Menchaca 

So, I think in probably most of the examples you just laid out, they're all based on capitalism. It's like, Oh, we need capitalism. We need our fuel for the system. And so immigrants - and I'm kind of speaking not because I believe this, but because this is the system - but their best argument is that they're the ones that are going to pick our cotton, and our lettuce, and our tomatoes. So, we saw that in Florida where the governor said, Hey, we're gonna make it really hard. 

 

Ron DeSantis

Today, the Florida legislature has passed the strongest legislation to combat illegal immigration of any state in the entire country. 

 

Menchaca 

And so, folks left, and left fields unpicked. And so, prices went up for strawberries and oranges in Florida. So, we're already seeing that, which is why it's a talking point. It's like, Okay, they're gonna they're gonna be the ones that pick our food. We're still in that mindset. We got to break through that. We’ve got to bring more humanity into the system. Capitalism doesn't get us there. I don't know what system it is. I don't know if we could get out of capitalism. They're so intertwined with democracy. And so, that's what I'm thinking as I hear folks, they're still kind of stuck on, maybe stuck on stupid, stuck on old-fashioned ways of thinking about humanity, but it is complicated, and you need good communicators to really lay it all out.

 

Latifi 

And isn't that part of the problem is that the best communicators - Eric Adams, Jasmine Crockett, Donald Trump, obviously - are the ones spewing the most problematic things?

 

Menchaca  

Yeah, yes, yes, because they're in power. And I think - look, I don't want to leave this as like Congressmember Crockett is someone that is anti-immigration. I think she stands up on the side of immigrants. But to your point, the communicators right now are trying to figure out what's going to land with their constituents, and so they're also trying to figure out how to stay relevant, not get backlash from the community, but make an argument, but this is all failing the ultimate thing, because in so many ways, immigration and immigrants have been kind of back-and-forth from fear and neglect. Either we fear them or we just neglect them and don't do anything for them. That’s it. That's the space. We haven't been able to get them into places where the immigrant community has been given its support with love, nationally. 

 

Latifi  

So, we're The New Humanitarian, right? And we focus specifically on humanitarian issues, and that can sometimes be hard for us to define, but I've noticed something that you know, in the US right now, people are facing issues like mass deportation, displacement or what in the US you would call homelessness, crackdowns on protest, investigations into your private activities. You know, something that began under the Patriot Act way back in the early 2000s. These things, when they happen in the US, it's seen as a political crisis, but let's say, if it was happening in Turkey or Pakistan, we would call it a humanitarian issue or humanitarian crisis. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that in the US, these issues are seen as political or partisan issues, and somewhere else it would be seen as a humanitarian or human rights issue?

 

Menchaca  

Oh, so this is what I've been thinking about a lot. It's like, when is the UN going to come in? Right? Like, we’ve got to call the UN.

 

Latifi  

Do you want that?

 

Menchaca 

This is an absolute humanitarian crisis, and I think - this is a hard one, because I'm still thinking through this. One is, we are also the most wealthy country, believe it or not, and some of us don't believe it, because we don't see that. But I think that the resources that are kind of flowing through our communities protect us from the realisation that we're actually in an incredible humanitarian crisis. I was just in LA recently, and the displaced folks walking through the streets of downtown San Francisco, and New York City in the subways. You're beginning to kind of see this: Don't look at capitalism over here. Look at the political folks who can't get it right. And because politics has kind of gone from back and forth. You have a Republican mayor, then you have a Democrat mayor, and you know, it doesn't get solved. This is the hard part of where we are, and the incredible asset this is for Trump, because people will keep thinking about this as a political class, like we got to vote, somehow we got to vote our way out of it. And in fact, our voting has got us deeper into this. That's the crisis we're in right now, and it's going to be a hard one to get out. 

 

Latifi

You're probably the first person I've heard actually say that you think the US is in the midst of a humanitarian crisis. So, why do you think it's so important to admit that?

 

Menchaca  

Well, one is, I believe it, and then two, I don't know how helpful that's going to be to say it. And I think what I'm trying to say is it's so distorted, and I'm finding that too, like we're gonna end this podcast, I'm gonna go and walk through the grove of Redwoods just five minutes up the road, and I'm gonna have a good day. And that's because I've built that for myself so that I don't go crazy. And so, there's this like, dissonance that's happening, this kind of separation, this disassociation to what's happening, and how do you sound the alarm without desensitising people? And we're just desensitised. I think we haven't understood the full impact of COVID and what that did to our psyche. I was in New York when that happened, as a council member, watching people die in my neighborhood. Migrants that were doing the work, because nobody else did. How do you communicate? How do you bring people into the story? Which is why I think storytelling is going to be really important in this next phase. I don't know if data is going to work anymore. Data is now thought to be…

 

Latifi  

Like, you can manipulate it?

 

Menchaca  

Manipulated, and also just like, it's just not important, because everybody is kind of throwing their own data. And so, what happens in a moment where science becomes an enemy? And what I have found in these last couple years is that stories are still impactful. That people are still in their feelings. And case in point, there's some work that I did on the border. The border is essentially closed, but when it was open, just understanding how it worked and what people's experiences were, and in the middle of that, I realised that people would travel with their dogs, and their kids, and the family, but when they get to the border, the asylum process, doesn't allow you to bring your pet, so people are abandoning their pets in a very emotional way. Do you have a pet, Ali?

 

Latifi  

No. No.

 

Menchaca 

No. Okay. Do you know someone that has a pet?

 

Latifi 

No, but I was just gonna say this. Here in Afghanistan, we have a massive issue with deportations from Pakistan. Pakistan right now is in the midst of this massive deportation wave of Afghans claiming that they’re a strain on the economy, and that they’re a threat to national security - sounds very familiar.

 

Menchaca 

It sounds like Trump.

 

Latifi

Yes. And I was just at the separation between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and I noticed there was a family with their dog on a leash in the refugee camp walking their dog, and so what you just said reminded me of that.

 

Menchaca  

They're part of your family. So, I have a dog. I would do anything for my dog, to save their life, to keep them with me. And the stories that I would get from folks that their pets were very much part of the reason they just kept going. So, I'm talking to these white women in Dallas and their hearts just open. They're like, What? This is happening? That moment is what I'm talking about. That moment where a story hits them, so they can just think about this differently, and open themselves up to humanity. And it's going to take a dog and the story of a displaced dog to - I think - open the wedge for this bigger conversation, and I think that's the story that we need to tell. 

 

Latifi  

In the very beginning, you brought up the issue of strong men, and I just referred to that example of Pakistan, very much mimicking the rhetoric of the Trump administration about kicking Afghans out of Pakistan. And, I've noticed this, that globally, you know, there's Trump now, there's Bukele, there's Modi in India. Do you think that there's a larger trend of populism and strong men globally. And do you think that the US is sort of moving in that direction? 

 

Menchaca  

Yes, this is where we're headed. This is where we've been headed. I just saw a report that AOC - Alexandria Ocasio Cortez - might be the next nominee for the Democrats. 

 

Latifi

Democratic Party.

 

Menchaca

That's populism, right? Like, it just doesn't mean that populism is bad, it just means that populism is rising. And so, I don't see AOC and Trump as different creatures. They're the same creatures of the system, different fungus on the ground, sure, but they're blooming in this way that offer that as a way. I don't know what an AOC presidential ticket could look like, the policies that would get pushed forward, or the efficacy of that kind of thing, but that's where we're going.

 

Latifi  

Do you think that it's possible for these populist figures to use their ability to tell stories to get the people of the United States to realise that, what would be called humanitarian crises in most other places in the world, going on in their country. For instance, if there was a massive homelessness epidemic in Nairobi or Bangkok, I'm almost certain we as The New Humanitarian would be covering it, and calling it a humanitarian crisis. So, do you think that it is possible for an AOC or anyone else to sort of use the power of populism and their words to get people in the United States to see that maybe they're not that different from a lot of other countries in the world? 

 

Menchaca  

Well, there's the American exceptionalism, right? So, like, we're different from everybody else. You can't paint the same brush of Nairobi or anywhere else, right? Like, we're different and we're better. That's the story. We believe that growing up, that's the pride that gets us in trouble. I don't know if populism is going to get us through. I think populism from the Democrats, however you cut it, unless a Democratic Party falls and fails and a new party arises, I don't think it shakes off. I don't think you can shake it off. The money is connected to it. The money is on both sides, the dark dollars, the dark money that's coming in to fund all of it, is still rooted in some really basic principles that there could never be a humanitarian crisis in the United States. That these are political issues. And so, what I hold is this idea that the people have power. We have people power. That's not getting manifested yet. We're not voting at a rate that really kind of gives the full power, the full brunt of our power, but we have midterms coming up, and so we're back to the political process. We're not in a humanitarian crisis. We are in a political problem. In order for us to kind of get out of where we need to go, the whole system needs to break. But now I'm sounding like Trump, like he wants to break the system. And so, there's this interesting edge to this, which is maybe Trump breaks the system, and then we can actually rebuild it the way that we need to. But if that happens, then we're, we're at the brink of a whole bunch of other catastrophic things that can happen, because we are a high military force. And if he gets away with everything he's going to get away with, a lot of people are going to die, or get jailed forever, disappear, and so, is that how we get to Paradise is on a trail of incredible carnage? 

 

Latifi 

Okay, so my final question is kind of trying to sum that up. What do you think the United States would look like in the next five years if you have this political crisis that you don't want to admit is a humanitarian crisis, but you also understand that simply making things political or partisan is kind of how we got here to begin with.

 

Menchaca  

Yeah, Okay, you're asking me to dream into my nightmare, so let me do that. I think the first thing that's going to go, the first thing we're going to feel, and the first thing that we're going to be like: Hey, what's happening here? Is the economy. The economy is going to tank. Somehow this, this big, big deal that Trump is trying to create with the tariffs - he wants to make deals, right? That's his thing. He can't live or breathe without doing a deal. Unfortunately, that's just not how our government works. We're not a corporation. And so, we will see the destruction of our economy, and when people feel that, I think that's where our wealth, and our ability, and our resources will be utilised - the ones that we have left - to get closer to a revolution. I think the economy is the thing that fuels us. So, if that goes to shit, then we're gonna have a real uprising. If the economy stays similar, all the political stuff that we're talking, the humanitarian, that's what we're experiencing, will keep going. So, as long as the economy is okay and people can eat and people can drive their - I'm gonna drive up to the Redwoods - as long as I have my pleasures in the economy, the humanitarian crisis will just keep going. And I think what's maybe now being said, but was unsaid for a long time, is that we have been in a constitutional crisis. This guy has already started doing this from day one. We're kind of hoping that the system is going to correct itself? No. We're still dreaming. We're still in dreamingland. We're still asleep.

 

Latifi  

Carlos Menchaca, thank you so much.

 

Menchaca  

Thank you for having me today.

 

Latifi

Carlos Menchaca is a legislator, activist, organizer, and former New York City council member.

 

Please visit TheNewHumanitarian.org for ongoing reporting on humanitarian work and crisis zones across the world. 

 

And what are people afraid to talk about in today’s crises? What needs to be discussed openly? Let us know by sending an email to [email protected]. Subscribe to The New Humanitarian on your podcast app for more episodes of What’s Unsaid – a podcast about open secrets and uncomfortable truths. Hosted by Obi Anyadike, and me. 

 

This episode is produced and edited by Freddie Boswell, sound engineering by Tevin Sudi, with original music by Whitney Patterson, and hosted by me – Ali Latifi. Thanks for listening!