Interview with Human Rights Watch representative

Speaking in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, Peter Bouckaert, the Human Rights Watch (HRW) representative, told IRIN that his organisation was closely monitoring events inside Afghanistan, focusing especially on the civilian fallout from the air campaign and the fighting between the Northern Alliance and Taliban forces. Two major concerns for HRW at present were the number of civilians fleeing the heavy bombardment of Kandahar in southern Afghanistan, and the risk of human rights violations if cities were to changes hands during factional fighting. With respect to Afghanistan's future, Bouckaert maintained that there would not be a stable government in Afghanistan which would respect the rights of its people until those responsible for past war crimes had been held accountable. "Warring factions in Afghanistan have long learnt the lesson that they can take up the gun and commit abuses against a population without facing justice, and that needs to be stopped," he said. Those with abusive records should be excluded from any future government coalition, he added. QUESTION: What is your perspective on human rights issues in Afghanistan at the moment? ANSWER: We have been monitoring Afghanistan for a quite long time, producing regular reports for human rights abuses which have been committed in the various conflicts in Afghanistan. For the moment our concerns are in three areas. The first is the US bombing campaign, and the targeting of the air bombing campaign. We're very closely monitoring what kind of targets the US is selecting, as well as the level of civilian casualties. The second issue deals with the fighting which is breaking out between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban. Both of these groups have very bad human rights records and have been responsible for serious massacres in the past. We are concerned that as territory starts changing hands, retaliatory massacres will once again be committed in Afghanistan. The third issue deals with the situation of internally displaced people as well as refugees. We think that it is very important that the countries in the region open their borders for refugees, and that the refugees who do cross borders are received in adequate conditions and in safe environments. Q: With regard to the bombing campaign, do you have evidence that the human rights situation has deteriorated? A: It's been very difficult for HRW and all other organisations to closely monitor what is happening inside Afghanistan, and to separate the fact from the fiction. There is certainly a lot of misinformation being put out by the Taliban, as well as by the US government, about exactly what targets are being selected and what the civilian casualties are. For the moment, we have been able to focus mostly on Jalalabad and [the capital] Kabul [both in the east]. We have certainly documented a number of cases where the wrong targets were hit, and three cases where humanitarian agencies have been affected. But the civilian death toll in those two cities seems to be quite low for the moment, but we are concerned that as broader targets are selected - as appears to be the case in Kandahar and [the western city of] Herat at the moment - that the civilian casualty rates will rise drastically. Q: In terms of human rights, what are the worst-affected areas inside Afghanistan? Which areas are you particularly concerned about? A: We're concerned mainly about two areas of the country at the moment. One area is Kandahar in the south, because very heavy bombing is taking place there, as well as some activities by US special forces. We are certainly concerned about the civilian population down there. Many people are fleeing from Kandahar, and are stuck at the border. The second [concern] is in the opposite [northern] area of the country, in Mazar-e Sharif, where some of the bloodiest massacres have taken place in recent years, and where now the Northern Alliance stands poised to attempt to retake Mazar-e Sharif, the town where the most serious massacres took place. So we're talking about different concerns in different areas of the country. Q: You mentioned there was a lot of misinformation coming out of Afghanistan, for reasons that people can't get in and they're getting false information from the Taliban. How is HRW going to get information on what exactly is happening inside in terms of human rights? A: We are basically using two primary sources of information. The first is the large number of NGOs that are still working inside the country, as well as UN agencies. We meet regularly with a large number of our partners to obtain first-hand information from their staff members coming out or to check what kind of information they're receiving through their telephone conversations with local staff. The second source of information are the internally displaced persons and refugees coming out of Afghanistan. We visit refugee populations quite regularly and take detailed statements from them. Obviously this is a slow process, because it takes time to confirm events, and we want to make sure that we have information about events from different sources before we go public with the information. At least we can say that when we do go public, then we're convinced that the information is solid and accurate. We see our role as providing impartial, credible information about human rights abuses in the country. Q: Have you spoken to any refugees so far? Can you tell us a bit about what news is coming out? A: Yesterday I spent a number of hours in the Jalozai camp near the town of Peshawar [capital of Pakistan's North West Frontier Province]. There are about two to three thousand new arrivals in that camp, living... mostly in small tents without any kind of infrastructure. I met many people who had just arrived the day before or two days before from Kabul and Jalalabad. One thing that has certainly struck me is that relatively small numbers of people are able to tell me about civilian casualties [inside Afghanistan]. I've worked in many similar conflicts, including Chechnya and Kosovo, and there were many more people in those conflicts that had information about civilian casualties. That either means that the people who have information about civilian casualties are not reaching Pakistan for the moment, or that civilian casualties are still relatively low. But the reasons for fleeing the country were more complex than just as a result of the US bombing. Many people were afraid of the Northern Alliance retaking parts of the country and committing abuses, a return to the kind of anarchy that existed when the Northern Alliance and other Mujahidin leaders were in power in Kabul. Others were concerned about the general breakdown of law and order in the country. I think as the food situation worsens in Afghanistan more people will also begin to flee, because they're simply starving. Q: And how about the situation of women? Were there any women that HRW were able to speak to? A: We face particular obstacles in interviewing women in Pakistan. In many of the refugee camps and other communities, women are almost invisible. You go and visit the refugee camp, and you are immediately approached by a group of elderly men, but you see very few women in those camps. However, women are often the most important source of information for us. Many women have left and can tell us about what has happened to their sons, for example. So we do have a female researcher, and because of the cultural traditions it's easier for women to interview women. She has been interviewing many of the female refugees. You'd have to ask her for more details on that. Q: There are reports emerging of people trapped inside Afghanistan now, unable to leave. What's HRW's position on that? A: For the moment, many people have fled the cities and gone into the countryside and into the villages for protection from the bombing campaign. Many people have relatives who live in the countryside. The kind of massive wave of refugees has not yet arrived because the situation in the countryside is not yet desperate enough - but it certainly will become desperate as food runs out. There is increasing pressure on the borders, and more people arriving at the borders. Even though the borders are closed, many people are crossing through informal paths or paying bribes to come into Pakistan. Certainly more than 30,000 people have arrived since the beginning of the bombing. We're concerned about two issues. We think that it's very important that the borders are opened, because people do have legitimate fears and should have the right to flee and seek safety in neighbouring countries. That's a basic principle in refugee law. But the second concern is about the conditions that people are being received in once they reach Pakistan. Pakistan has proposed setting up camps in very remote areas of the tribal trust lands, which are very insecure and where there is a strong pro-Taliban sentiment. The sites that have been selected have no infrastructure - there's no safe water, there's no food, there's no shelter. It means that everything needs to be brought in on a daily basis. It will be very difficult for the NGOs and the humanitarian community in general to reach these camps on a regular basis. It will be [under] quite desperate conditions. We oppose the creation of these camps in the Tribal Areas. We think that the Pakistan government should reconsider its position and create camps in safer areas. There are certainly enough old camp sites available in safe areas of Pakistan which could take in this refugee flow. Q: With respect to the bombing, would HRW join [some] NGOs in calling for a pause in the bombing, so that they can get food and supplies in safely? A: Our position is slightly different from the position that has been taken by some of the humanitarian NGOs. We think that it is important that all parties to the conflict take all possible steps to facilitate the work of humanitarian NGOs. There is simply no doubt that a very serious humanitarian crisis has already begun in Afghanistan, and could become catastrophic as winter approaches. But to simplify it to just an issue of stopping the bombing is an oversimplification. Much more needs to be done. The Taliban also has placed many obstacles in the path of humanitarian agencies, and they've generally made it very difficult for humanitarian agencies to operate. They don't allow them to communicate, which is essential to the running of humanitarian operations. So there are many steps which the various parties involved in the conflict could be taking to facilitate the work of humanitarian NGOs. We don't think we should dictate to them what those steps should be, but our general principle is that all parties should take all possible steps to facilitate the work of the humanitarian community. By the way, this is a Geneva Convention obligation, because the Convention requires warring parties to take all feasible steps to limit the impact of conflict on the civilian population. And certainly one of the steps is to facilitate the work of the humanitarian agencies. Q: Do you think that the military commanders of the warring factions involved will be put on trial for war crimes in the future? Would that happen? A: We think that one of the fundamental causes of the crisis in Afghanistan is the culture of impunity, which exists among all warring parties. There's many commanders within the Taliban, as well as in the Northern Alliance, who have committed very serious abuses, crimes against humanity and war crimes, and should be brought to account for them. We don't think that we will see a stable government in Afghanistan which will respect the rights of its people until some steps are taken towards accountability. Warlords with abusive records should be excluded from any future government coalition, and they should be brought to account - and that goes for the Taliban as well as for the Northern Alliance... Q: Do you think that this conflict could ultimately bring about a peace in the future? A: I think that will depend on the steps which are taken outside the military operations that are taking place inside Afghanistan. Certainly the current conflict in Afghanistan has focused a lot of international attention on Afghanistan. We hope that the international attention will also re-evaluate what has happened inside Afghanistan for the last 20 years. The people of Afghanistan are as tired of the warlords as many people in the international community are. They also want to live in peace without having their human rights abused. So I think it would be doing a great disfavour to the people of Afghanistan if their wishes are not taken into account and a stable and peaceful government is not brought to Afghanistan.