Power Shift | No one wants to depend on aid, including refugees

Hafsar Tameesuddin

Since the day I was born, I was stateless. And then I grew up and lived as a stateless person, so I have known the injustice, tasted it, lived in it, the system that exclude me, discriminate me, make me feel that I'm lesser human.

Melissa Fundira

What happens when a stateless activist sits down with a UN official they’ve never met? What if they had the chance to tell him what it’s like to lose everything, to have to depend on aid, and what it would take for refugees to have more agency - to lead?

Tameesuddin

What I have come across over and over again is that the systems and the policies and the legislations are forbidding them, not allowing them to be self-reliant. No one wants to depend on the aid and then unwanted and unwelcome - including myself, of course. I was a refugee.

 

Fundira

And can the decisions he makes in Geneva affect the lives of refugees on the other side of the world? 

 

Raouf Mazou

People who find themselves in displacement are saying: We don't want your eternal assistance, what we want is for you to make sure that we can enjoy our rights, that we can as fast as possible have normal lives, and that we can fend for ourselves. Endless eternal humanitarian assistance is definitely not the solution.

 

Fundira

Could their conversation change how those decisions are made? We’re about to find out. This is Power Shift. I’m your host, Melissa Fundira.

 

Tameesuddin 

Hi. Now, when you could easily pronounce my name, I am remembering how to pronounce your name - Raouf - did I say it right?

 

Mazou  

You did. Hafsar is yours, yes? 

 

Tameesuddin 

Yes. 

 

Mazou  

Excellent.

 

Tameesuddin 

Very nice to meet you.

 

Mazou

Very nice to meet you too.

 

Fundira

There are more than 43 million refugees and more than 4 million stateless people in the world, according to the UN. Now, the international aid system doesn’t set government migration policy, or put an end to conflicts, but it does play a key role in supporting refugees and stateless people. On one hand, the aid system can be the difference between life and death for many. On the other hand, it can keep people in a state of perpetual aid-dependence. Many have been born, raised, and lived entire lives in refugee camps in Kakuma, the West Bank, and Cox’s Bazar. These days, refugee-led organisations are taking up more space and calling out the outsized influence of aid agencies on the lives of so many living in displacement. Their demands are clear – no decisions about us, without us. But the truth is, while a few refugees might get invited to discussions about their own conditions, very few actually have power. The power to influence the decisions that affect them. The power to speak to the authorities who forced them to be refugees in the first place. Or the power to simply speak up for themselves. And that’s why we wanted to bring together Hafsar and Raouf. Because here on Power Shift, we’re asking: What's possible when decision-makers and those affected by their decisions sit down and talk?

 

Tameesuddin 

Before I became a refugee, my journey started as a stateless person, because in our country, Myanmar, Burma, they amended citizenship law before I was born in 1982. So when I was born, a year after – now, you know my age – I was born as a stateless person, since a baby. So, it means I never had a birth certificate in my own country.

 

Fundira

Hafsar Tameesuddin is a stateless Rohingya refugee rights activist currently resettled in New Zealand. Before that, they lived as a refugee in Malaysia for nearly a decade. And today, they are the co-secretary general of the Asia Pacific Refugee Rights Network. But their activism reaches far beyond their official paid duties, and includes advocacy work for survivors of sexual and gender-based violence and the LGBTQ+ community. Hafsar identifies as queer and uses both she and they pronouns, as you’ll hear us do the same throughout this episode. 

 

Tameesuddin 

Yes. I was born in a small town connected to Rakhine State where we are, a small number of families, of Rohingya families, there. Growing up as a child, I then always question myself: Why a different treatment to me? Why will they call me such a derogatory term? They will not call us Rohingya, but they will call us something like kula. It’s just discriminatory. You are a lower-ranked human, a sub-human, you know, you are not the same as others. So, there was always a thirst for justice in my heart. So it was always like, if I make it out of this country, I'm going to be so vocal about this human rights violation, for myself, and for others.

 

Fundira

Their counterpart in these conversations is Raouf Mazou. Raouf joined UNHCR in 1991 and has been with the UN’s refugee agency ever since. Today, Raouf is UNHCR's Assistant High Commissioner for Operations, which means he oversees its regional bureaus and leads the agency’s efforts to provide longer-term solutions for displaced and stateless people. Essentially, Raouf’s job is to make sure UNHCR has what it needs to fulfill its mission.

 

Mazou 

The sense that I had from day one is the fact that anybody, anybody on earth, can find himself or herself in a situation where you lose everything. You find yourself either in a camp or in a home or whatever, needing people's assistance, needing people's legal protection. From that time, that day of July ‘91 when I started, at no point did I doubt that this is what I was meant for. So, that's how I could continue to do the same thing for 33 years.

 

Tameesuddin  

Can you hear me?

 

Mazou

Yes.

 

Tameesuddin  

Alright, so I have internet, good. Recording. Where are you based, Raouf?

 

Mazou  

In Geneva. And you?

 

Tameesuddin 

I’m in windy Wellington, New Zealand. 

Mazou 

OK, that’s far away from here.

 

Tameesuddin  

Yes, I am far away from the rest of the world. It's always painful when you do online meetings.

Mazou 

But I understand it’s six, six o'clock. 

Tameesuddin

It is six o'clock. Thank you so much for making it a bit less painful for me. Because most of the time I have meetings at 10, 11. Central Europe midday is midnight here, so New Zealand is not a good place to be if you work in this sector.

Mazou

That’s true.

Fundira

Raouf and Hafsar, thank you so much for joining us. And I will very quickly introduce you to Lina, who is the wonderful consultant working with me on this project, and your moderator for all of these conversations. She is the founder of the Center for Transformational Change. And, I'm going to hand it over to Lina.

Lina Srivastava

Yeah, and it's wonderful to have you here. And I think normally people who are on your side of the world, Hafsar, are the ones who have to stay up at night. So, it's only fair that we stay up at night this time. And I promise this is not my pyjamas.

Mazou

[Laughs]

Tameesuddin

I can already sense the power shift happening.

Srivastava

Oh yeah, absolutely.

 

Tameesuddin

It has been me always taking the pain because I choose to live – or I am living - in New Zealand. Thank you.

Srivastava

Well, we're modeling “power shift”, there you go. So, welcome to Power Shift, a podcast series from The New Humanitarian that seeks to bridge the power gap in aid and philanthropy. In each episode, we're bringing together decision makers and those affected by their choices, featuring pairs of speakers from, what we think are different power positions, within the sector, to have them engage in candid and open dialogue. And we've asked you to come together as a dialogue pair, because of your work on, and expertise in, and lived experience in, forced displacement and the role that the humanitarian aid sector plays in serving refugees, migrants and asylum seekers. Just a question, the two of you haven't spoken before, ever before. Correct?

Mazou

First time, first time.

Srivastava

Wonderful. Okay. I'd like to sort of start with a little bit of an icebreaker question: Where do you come from? You can answer that in terms of geography, in terms of education, in terms of positionality. You know, what's a story that tells us where you come from, and how those beginnings have helped you become the person you are today? And Hafsar, I'd like to start with you.

Tameesuddin

Well, where did I come from? I come from a country called Myanmar, Burma. That is the country where I was born. And your second question is: how and what brought me to be where I am in terms of doing what I'm doing? That seems very simple, yet difficult question. I must say, everything that I experience, as a person with lived experience, or just a human that has shaped me to be who I am today - the good and the bad, the challenges, the support, the system that I live in, lived through - all [these things have] shaped me to become who I am today, I think.

Mazou

As Hafsar said, it's a simple and complex question at the same time. So, I come from Benin, Republic of Benin, which is a country in West Africa. But when I was born, I was using a Congolese nationality. I was, because I was a Congolese and I am a Congolese national. Because at the time of independence, my family which is originally from Benin had moved to Congo Brazzaville. But I happen to be born in Switzerland, where I spent a good part of my life, and I worked in various parts of the world. So, I think that's what defines me: the fact that I was born in a place, I have another nationality - I have two other nationalities - and then I have throughout my life been moving around the world living in different locations for work, primarily. So, I define myself as somebody who has many, many different different roots, and I would say, is comfortable everywhere I am.

Tameesuddin

Can I get one of your nationality, please? Because still today, no, no country in the world has tell me, told me, that I'm a citizen of a country yet. I'm still waiting for the New Zealand government to give me citizenship. Because of my extensive travel for advocacy, they have declined my citizenship. They said you need to be in the country adequately. I said: Well, I've been traveling for human rights stuff. So, I was smiling because you have so many of what I really would like to have one, because it is painful to travel with the convention refugee travel document. It is such a painful process, discriminatory and exclusive, even at the airport. And I was going to ask: Can I ask one from you, Raouf?

Mazou

Maybe I'll send you one. Which one do you want, Benin or Congo? I can…

Tameesuddin

It doesn't matter, as long as I can travel with less pain, it's fine.

Mazou

Can you tell us about this experience of using the convention travel document? Because the purpose of the document is to make sure that you're in a position of traveling, and it is New Zealand which has provided you that document but when you say it’s difficult to travel. What are the issues that you are encountering?

Tameesuddin

People do not believe you are allowed to travel legally because of the cover of the book. It doesn't say a passport. It says: Convention Refugee Travel Document 1951. The moment they see that: What is this? Why are you traveling with this? The airline staff will say that, the immigration will say that.

Mazou 

So, they don't know, so say they don't know...

Tameesuddin

No, they don't. They have zero knowledge, and then if they do know, they are concerned that you will not go back. You will seek asylum wherever you are going. And then there are many times when I apply for a visa, people will say: Can you get a letter from the immigration New Zealand saying that you will come back to New Zealand? I was like: Why wouldn't I come back?

Mazou 

So, but you have visas? You get visas when you travel with the document?

Tameesuddin 

I must get visa for every country that I go outside of New Zealand. Without visa, I cannot move out of this country. Even with that visa. It is always the case.

Mazou  

The issue of statelessness, and the importance of dealing with it, we tend to talk about it from a theoretical point of view, but how crucial and how important it is that we place the issue of statelessness at the center of what we're doing. 

Tameesuddin

Since the day I was born, I was stateless. And then I grew up and lived as a stateless person until I left the country somewhere in mid-20s of my life. So, I have known the injustice, tasted it, lived in it, the system that exclude me, discriminate me, make me feel that I'm lesser human, and a lot of deprivation. So, you know, the first instinct of human beings when people are being oppressed is you're angry, but then slowly, you then think about, what do I do in this, in this messiness of life? Is there anything that I can do? Then I went: Okay, maybe I could do something. And I also, as I grew up, I realized I'm not the only one who is in that misery and miserable lives. There are many other thousands and hundreds in different parts of the world, from my own country, in my neighboring countries. I could either choose to be vulnerable, and remain vulnerable, or I do something about it. So maybe, in the time of the next generation, they might get to live in a slightly better world, if not in a perfect world. So yeah, that's how I was motivated and I started doing a bit of those questioning, challenging the system, even when I was still in the, inside the country as a stateless person. It wasn't easy. It is risky. Even when I was an asylum seeker in transition country, even when I was a refugee, I constantly challenged myself and others to think about it, reflect about it.

Mazou

I started in ‘91, with UNHCR. And I wouldn't say that my objective was to work for UNHCR. It happened because there was a circumstance where somebody said that we're looking for lawyers, fairly young people from the continent, from the African continent, to start at the point where UNHCR was hiring. But the minute I started, the first place I went to was in the northern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo – at that time it was called Zaire – and from day one, I realized that this is the work that I wanted to do, and I continued doing that work. The reason why - or at the beginning, the very first days I was working for the organization - the key thing for me, you are - in this case, it was a camp - we were coming as the humanitarian community providing support, providing assistance. And what I realized very, very fast, is that those we were supposed to help, actually could help themselves, if we simply created the circumstances for them to have normal lives, fend for themselves, etc. So, very quickly, what I saw was that a lot of what we were doing was to try and say that we want to bring that humanitarian assistance to them. And that somehow this was the conversation that they were expecting, and the conversation that we were also expecting to engage in, when in reality that was not necessary in the sense that they had way more to fend for themselves than they even realized when discussing. So, that's, I mean, throughout the time that I've been in UNHCR, it has been to try and, rather than to have that rapport of providing assistance to a refugee population, or this relationship of people providing assistance to others, and the whole power relation that we're talking about. At the end of the day, our role in our work is to discuss with those we're helping and define with them how we can support them in supporting themselves. The humanitarian response in itself, tends to be something that is provided in the same manner everywhere, to everybody, using the same methodologies, etc. So that's, that's the reality. So, shifting and moving towards self-reliance, I think, is something that would help make sure that each situation is seen uniquely as it is. It's very clear that there is a tendency to believe that a displaced person, internally displaced person, is the same whether the person is Bangladesh, or whether the person is in DRC or elsewhere, while it is clearly not, not the fact. So, having a response that is local, having a response that has as an objective to reach self-reliance - if I can use that word - in a short period of time, is something that I believe would help in that regard. And, throughout the time that I've been with UNHCR, I've seen in various stages how this can be done. And I would say that we are now at a stage where this is much more spoken to, spoken about, sorry, than it was 30 years ago, when I started, where the relationship between the so-called aid community and refugees, and displaced people living in a situation of statelessness was more this kind of imbalance relation. The imbalance of power comes from situations where the support that is provided is unsustainable, or is not leading towards self-reliance and the ability of those who are receiving this assistance to become independent, self-reliant, and no longer need that assistance. So, it's the dependency that is created. Now we are, I think, gradually moving to a place where I believe we are investing the resources and the attention where it needs to be.

Srivastava

Why do you think the power – within communities and the unique aspects of communities – why do you think that's overlooked? Why do you think people who are displaced or refugees, why do you think they're treated as a monolith within the sector?

Tameesuddin

The very simple thing is that it's just easy. You know, when you put everybody in the same box, you don't have to do a lot of work. Easy, get on with it. And the other thing is that, unfortunately, inevitably, there are so many overwhelmingly, emerging, global crises. Then people are so busy of responding to the urgency of the now, then often overlook the crucial importance of looking: What does the diversity, inclusion and equity mean across different groups? And I feel it is not only the responsibility of the policy makers, but everyone's responsibility, and everyone has a role to critically reflect our own institutional racism, biases, power, prejudice, all of that. We don't do that because it is so easy and comfortable to just, you know, follow what the crowd do, rather than you being alone and minority, critically challenging the system, calling them: Can you please reflect and evaluate if, if things and the way, how we have done so far is really working? Is there any rooms that we need to reconsider and reflect and think about it, so we don't do that enough? So, there are a number of layers and obstacles of ensuring that diversity, that inclusion, that equity is in place, and the power, that decentralisation of power from the very top to, you know, from people without lived experience, to people with lived experience. Within, among the communities of people with lived experience then, there is some, some groups may be proportionally luckier than the other. So, there is also some power dynamic in terms of some people are very good at speaking English. Some people might be struggling with the language, literacy and so forth. So, these are not the things that we often critically think about. What is so important for a lot of people. And people focus on: Oh, we have an event coming up. We have a list of people that we know, get them on board. You know, we have a very tight time frame. Get it done and we deliver it. That’s it. Tick the box. So, there are a number of things, so that require a lot of reflection from the people, like myself as well. Just because I am someone with lived experience, a stateless person, it doesn't give me assumption. I need to do my own reflection about whatever privilege and power that I have, versus another refugee, another stateless person, another LGBTQ person who might not be as lucky as I am. From the place where I am right now, and how am I positioning myself in their standing in solidarity with my other fellow people with lived experience and also people without lived experience in the sector. 

Mazou  

I think Hafsar is right in saying that there is a tendency for the humanitarian community to go towards those who speak English. Those who are the most vocal. Those who come forward and want to represent others. That being said, a displacement situation or refugee situation does not change the power dynamics that may exist in a community. In my experience in refugee situations that I've been working in, you very quickly see the same power dynamic that you have in any society playing out. Leadership is leadership, and you definitely see, always, the same trait in the people who come forward and say: I am going to represent the community. 

Tameesuddin

I find it frustrating and stressful and lonely when I see that, you know, there are… How do I describe this? Even within the communities of displacement, even within the community of refugees, stateless people, and forced displacement, and LGBTQ, the life experience of us differs and it is diverse. The statelessness issue from Rohingya in Myanmar is very different than the statelessness issue of Nepal. The statelessness issue from Global North is very different. Being a stateless person inside Myanmar means you don't have a birth certificate. You don't travel from your town to another town, just for overnight. You need a travel document. You don't see the outside world. Being stateless from another part of the world means you still can go to school. You’re still moving around. There are some degree of limitations. So, I find very frustrating that the same handful of prominent so-called recognised and known leaders are on the table, on the decision-making, without having those people in the system on the ground, in the refugee camp in the IDP camp stuck, or, you know, something very relevant to the topic that we are discussing and talking about, as Raouf said, we have NGO consultation. There might be plenary session about the situation inside the camp. And I wouldn't think I am the right credible person to be on the panel and sitting and talking about the camp where I have never lived in the camp. I've only lived in my country as a stateless person. So, it is concerning to me, how are we defining about the meaningful participation? And there is a power that we don't talk about, because this power exists within the lived experience community. The leaders who are known, the leaders who are already famous, the leaders who are already connected, the leaders who are in the list of the big NGOs and organisations as the invitee lists. And for sure, they will be the one who are invited again and again, and it is their responsibility to reflect: Am I the right person to go? If those people in the camp cannot come, what else I can do? Can I at the very least consult or talk to them and tell them with humble humility and tell them: Look, if you cannot go, I am willing to on your behalf. But can you tell me what is it that you would like me to tell them? And then even on the panel when I'm sitting, it is my ultimate responsibility, instead of talking about the I, the I, and Hafsar, it is my my ultimate responsibility to honestly mention that: I bring this message on behalf of this community, who are not able to travel. And I'm saying this on behalf of them, and I am their voice. This is it. This is a very simple integrity that we are missing in the sector. And I wonder how and why we are doing this. Never in my wildest dream, I will ever think the humanitarian sector can be seen as a business place. People just try to remain there to seek their fame, publicity, to secure their position, to secure all things, and what like what is the cause? What is the main reason of why? Why are you here? What is your why? I always ask the people: Do you know your why? I know my why. I know my why, why I'm doing this. So yes, it is frustrating. It is the next layer of power that we need to talk and really critically think about it. I don't say it personally, because I don't like a handful of people. I like them. I have so much respect for them. But I'm really concerned that it is tokenistic. I'm really concerned that it is only those people, the same people who have been there for 10 years still sitting, as if we no longer have other competent representation. We're talking about 100 million plus displaced populations across the world. Of course, we have more than those 10 people. Of course, we have more than those 20 people that we always have.

Mazou  

The point Hafsar made earlier, I think, is a crucial one. The issue of representativity of people in conferences, meetings. If you take the conversation out of where things are happening, and you bring it to Geneva, or to New York, or to wherever, you're bound not to talk about real things. The conversation has to happen where things are happening. In the displaced camp, displacement camp, in the situation where people find themselves in a situation of statelessness, we have to make sure that if the conversation happens there, then you have at the table those who, you at least you have, you’re with the people who are most affected, and then you can make sure that everybody's at the table and that there is a conversation and meaningful conversation, which is focusing on making sure that those in need are provided with a true assistance that they require.

 

Srivastava  

Hafsar, do you have a sense of when you travel for advocacy, when you're traveling for, say conferences or conventions, and such, do the organizers and the people who invite you, do they have a sense of how difficult it is for you to get around? And to go through immigration processes?

 

Tameesuddin  

They have a very vague idea that if you are holding a refugee travel document, you may need a visa. I do not think they understand, even to go through the visa application process is very painful, because most of the time the embassy is not sure if they should issue the visa or not. And many times they will say: Can you get a letter from the immigration saying that you will come back? And they will ask you so many additional questions, and then the visa processing time is so long. Sometime they will be like, we will decline you and all of that. It's very, very stressful.

 

Srivastava 

Yeah, so that seems like it's an area for the sector to explore as well, when we think about engaging refugees to be at the quote, unquote, table. So that's, that's already a barrier.

 

Mazou 

We're having our NGO consultations in Geneva, and for many refugees, it's simply not been possible for us to get visas. So, some refugees who were supposed to come and participate in the conference, could not. So, that's definitely an issue which is being raised with authorities of the countries where we are organising meetings and conferences, but it is definitely a challenge, and as you said something that needs to be looked at very closely.

 

Tameesuddin  

I almost see this meaningful refugee participation and inclusion is a social movement that requires ongoing reflection, because trends are emerging. Trends are changing within the communities. The circumstances across the globes are changing and all of this. So, if we are going to get everyone on the table for the sake of having diversity, without having a proper channel of mentoring and training the new and emerging leaders, without making sure they know how to engage in this kind of environment, you know, how to deal with this diplomacy, bureaucracy, policy, understanding the system, if we just: Okay. Now we have 120 different groups. We are gonna have one from each group for the sake of having them without identifying if that person is the right and competent person to be at the table. If not, there is a danger of having people for the sake of having it: Come, we want diversity without training and giving the skills and giving, you know, the assurance of safety and enough information and all of that, it is tokenistic. So, that requires really being reflective and thinking critically. How do we do better than today, when there is another event tomorrow? And, it's an ongoing, reflective social movement, from my perspective.

 

Srivastava

If it's a social movement, who's driving the movement?

Tameesuddin 

So, it's a very good question. Well, it should be, ultimately, the people with lived experience should be leading and driving. But for now, we are still getting there. We are not there yet. But saying so, I also want to appreciate the role of people without lived experience with other expertise in this space of social movement as an ally. Because without our allies, I don't think people with lived experience alone can achieve this. We need ally knowing their space and still complementing the movement being led by the people with lived experience, driven by the people with lived experience,

 

Srivastava  

The concept of power is something that we often talk about in human rights or a little bit also in development, like, you know, there's a framework around power dynamics and such. It's only recently that I've been hearing the concept of power really discussed in the humanitarian aid sector in this way. Hafsar, how do you relate to the concept of power in the humanitarian sphere? Is it a word that you use? Is it a concept that you use? Is it useful to you? How do you relate to it?

 

Tameesuddin 

It is useful to use in some case scenario. It can be taken a little bit as an… people might feel a little bit offended when people are confronted to think about the privileges that we have. I would like to think about it more as a position of privileges. I find it, as a former, you know, stateless person - still stateless - and refugee and all of that, I find it, sometimes perhaps I don't think it's coming from, from a position of any ill will, is it? People have a good heart. People always want to do good. Because they have a good heart and goodwill, they want to nurture and, you know, rescue and save the people: Let me do this for you. Let me let me tell you what you need. The people who make this decision, the giver and the recipients mentality. We are giving you the humanitarian system you are receiving. Because you are receiving, and because we're also working in this sector for a long time now, we know by heart, we already know everything, the trends, the needs. So, let us do that for you. Let us take care of you. But then, I think in many ways, we are now at the stage, at the phase, that we are now aware that it is not working really well in the humanitarian sector. If we assume and think that we know because we are in the position of privilege, where we can give, where people will receive. And, we have been in the sector, in the space, we have other knowledge, although we don't have lived experience, you know, which is really important. I will acknowledge that. The academic and educational you know, institutional knowledge and all of that, it's really important, it's crucial. But then, because we have all these privileges and knowledge, because we assume we know everything, it's not serving the sector. So, I think it is more important to challenge ourselves and others, and confirmed to be mindful of the privileges that we have, and also appreciating, what does it feel like? What does it feel like to be the receiving body? What does it feel like to be in this situation? What does it feel like to be dependent on aid? Do you like it? How does the people feel, if you always go and rescue and save them all the time, instead of ensuring that they too have the agency of, you know, making changes for their own life, as Raouf has rightfully mentioned. So, I think it is important to mention about the power in many sense. But the crucial bit is to be mindful of the privileges that we have. The privileges that come with our social status. The privileges that come with your life experience. And, you know, your generation, where you come from - as your first question goes - and all of that and mindful of our privilege and position, and how do we position in this humanitarian sector for the greater cause? And again, also, this is very much linked to our why. Why? Why are we in this sector? Why do we do what we do? And I think it is really crucial. Again, you know, the reality is, if you look around the world now, these humanitarian crises are overwhelmingly getting worse. Nothing is getting better. If we do not look into this privilege, power, how do we position ourselves in the best way moving forward, for the greater cause to ease this, this overwhelmingly arising humanitarian crisis, and look into the sustainability. Look into the independency, the agency of the people to be able to be a part of the changemaker for their own future. Otherwise, we're not going to make it. It is impossible that only a group of people, only a handful of sector and organisations are, you know, in the position to make these changes. It is impossible. We need to get everyone including the affected population to play a role in addressing this, in responding to the humanitarian issues emerging, existing ones, and the overwhelming ones.

Fundira

We’ll be right back, after this message.

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Srivastava

Hafsar you are, it's an imperfect term, but you're closer to the ground, quote, unquote, right? The proverbial ground. And Raouf you're sort of closer to headquarters. First to Hafsar, where do you see yourself on the sort of, like, on the spectrum of power and privilege in the humanitarian sector? Like, because you are, quote, unquote, closer to the ground? Does that give you more power or less power within the sector? And also, I mean, you've mentioned like, we each have multiple identities. We come into the space with gender identities, or ethnic and, you know, sort of identities, immigration status identities where do you see yourself on the power spectrum as you do this work?

Tameesuddin  

Since the beginning of my work as the human rights activist a long time ago, I have been constantly fighting and reclaiming my space in this sector. You know, now, I became one of the co-secretary general of Asia Pacific Refugee Rights Network. And I serve at the UN ex-advisory group of meaningful refugee participation a little bit in… you know, I go to all this, none of this, were given. They all were fought for. They all were something that I had to reclaim, and advocate, and struggle to be in those positions. Now, I have this leadership position. A lot of people will think: Oh, now, you are the SG. Your life has been busy. No, there is the next level of challenge await. People are now looking: Okay, now you become the SG of a network, as lived experience, are you competent to do this work? There is questioning of your competency. You know, compared to other people at the similar age of me, of course, in terms of other skills, I may not have that, but lived experience. People talk about: Oh, meaningful experience, meaningful refugee, great, great way to have someone, but then when lived experience people come in this kind of decision-making leadership position, they then have this concern about, you know, competency, are you competent? And then with your identity, are you supposed to be in this leadership position? Such a network of you know, an LGBTQ community, and all of that. So, it is constantly something that I have to fight. And then now, I'm also struggling between, now you’re holding this position. How do you justify between you being someone with lived experience and then you also being a co-SG. Does it then - because you are given this position - does it undermine your ability to be those important discussions as lived experienced person, because the privilege comes with this title, sort of, that you are now SG. People will be like: Oh, you're no longer credible to be in the room of, full of leaders with lived experience. So I’m like: Well, I'm still someone with lived experience just because I'm SG now. You don't invite me in the consultation with the high commissioner where other refugee leaders are talking. Why? Then I don't want this title. I want to be in the room more than a title so, there is still a lot of ongoing power, privilege that I'm struggling day to day basis. And I feel in another way, still people do not appreciate what does it like to be born as a stateless person? What does it feel like to be only get to resettle to another country five years ago and you have to catch up with your degree, you have to try very hard, you know, to be embraced and respected in those positions. People feel like you are competent, what does it feel like? And I feel it's very underrated and unappreciated. What does it take for someone with lived experience to revisit all the trauma, difficulty and challenges we have lived, and still holding on to this, you know, reclaiming our space in the sector, and also balancing this competency question, and leading and living? It's a lot. Sometimes I feel very overwhelmed, but then I said to one of my friends, I said, if I never paved this path, for other lived experience people to come in, this place will never be a given. I will still remain here, maybe for another one year. So this co-leadership thing, lived experience person being in the leadership position is landed in a calmer water. People see with their own eyes, lived experience people have the different set of skills, competency, than institutional knowledge, than others, which are also crucial in this space, I will not say these are needed, really needed. But there are other things that the lived experience leaders bring in. Are we ready to actually embrace it, respect it, and complement it?

Mazou 

You know, I'm listening to Hafsar, and what I think is that she has the power. If the objective, if her objective is to resolve problems, if that's the objective - it may not be - but if that's the objective, the power is with Hafsar. The institutional element that you're making, referring to, as opposed to lived experience, I would say that the actual power is with you, because you have both the lived experience and the more institutional approach through your functions. I think the influence that I have, or the power that I have - if you want to use that word - is first to explain what I see when I travel around the world. The power that I have is to connect people. When I meet a farmer in the southern part of Niger, telling me: I don't want humanitarian assistance, I want support so that I can continue to farm. I've had a conversation with somebody who is prepared to provide me with that land. I have the power to then have a conversation with the government of the country. I have, and to have a conversation with those who can provide that support to this farmer who would like to be able to farm, and to then explain at different level – country level, regional level, global level – how, at the end of the day, it is in the interest of everybody to make sure that this farmer, whom I met in a given place or in a given location, is provided with the support to be able to achieve that. And, as somebody who's worked in humanitarian work for the past 30-plus years, I see the shift. I see the change, and I see how there is, of course, a tendency to see the person who is displaced as a victim. I see the shift between that and seeing the person as somebody who's not a victim, not necessarily a victim, but somebody who, also provided with the right support, can stand for themselves, herself, himself. So, that's what I can do, and that's what I'm trying to do in my work. From outside, one may look at somebody who works for UNHCR, in a leadership position as a person who is in a position of power as such, but again, the ability to resolve the problem is not here in Geneva at headquarters. The ability to resolve the problem is in the various locations around the world where the problem is, and I would say that we've had a tendency to move the issue from where it can be resolved to other locations around the world, and to what is sometimes described as centers of power or the rest. But, if I take the situation in Myanmar, if I take the situation of refugees in Bangladesh, if I take the situation of refugees in the DRC, or internally displaced persons in DRC, the power to resolve these problems, I would say is closer to this location, than it is elsewhere. Influence comes from various places, but I would say the actual power is in these locations.

Srivastava

There’s a recognition that there is a power in lived experience. There is a power in the local. And, what I’m hearing from you, Raouf, is that you’re acknowledging that, in that you say that the power sits there, but how much is that recognition, is there a wide recognition in the centers of, in Global North power or Western power? Do you think that you're an outlier in understanding that? Or is it something that you're seeing over and over again, and, and there's a move towards recognising this kind of lived experience?

Mazou  

When I started with UNHCR, I would go to refugee camps, and I would meet refugees. The feeling was one of helplessness and thinking, we need to have support from somewhere else. And you did have, most governments were seeing refugee situations as temporary and saying: You're going to be in a camp for a short period of time, and then you're going to go back to your place of origin. So, in the meantime, don't get involved in the economy of the country where you are. You are going to get food assistance, you're going to get health care, you're going to get the rest. And then find yourself 30 years later, still have people finding themselves in the same camp situation. That temporary situation that everybody thought we were experiencing has lasted a very long period of time. And then suddenly people realise that, despite that aid or support that comes from the rest of the world, which is often shrinking over time, less and less assistance comes in, that there is possibility for people to fend for themselves, to recreate an economy, to recreate an environment where they can be self-reliant, and less of the belief that there is a dependency on this humanitarian assistance that comes from outside. Again, I don't want to generalise because I may sound like all situations are the same. But I've often seen situations over time, when gradually, often as aid and support assistance diminishes and goes down, there is a realisation of those who were receiving this assistance that in reality they can fend for themselves. So, what is changing now is an earlier realisation of that, of more and more people whose work and responsibility is to support people who find themselves in situations of displacement or statelessness. A greater realisation that, at the end of the day, our job and our responsibility is to ensure that as fast as possible, a person who finds himself or herself or oneself in a situation of statelessness or displacement can be self-reliant - to make it simple. And am I an outlier? I think there is a general understanding. And I would say in that, those who find themselves in situation of displacement, play a lead role, play a key role, and we see more and more, a situation where people who find themselves in displacement are saying: We don't want your eternal assistance, what we want is for you to make sure that we can enjoy our rights, that we can as fast as possible have normal lives, and that we can fend for ourselves. Endless, eternal humanitarian assistance is definitely not the solution. And that then results in that - is it a shift of power? I don't know if that's the term to use. But that is resulting in power moving back to where it should be, which is with the people who have an issue with the situation in which they are, and the possibility for them to find a solution in the context where they are.

Tameesuddin

I want to also compliment to what Raouf said, now I feel like we can work together in the same office. The things that you mentioned, you know, the way how we operate here, not operating at the level where the communities are. Why do we even do these events in Geneva, instead of doing it in the refugee camp, in the host country where refugees are hosted, and stateless people? That has been something that I always question, but then we have seen slight changes. There is acknowledgement, and accepting the idea of this power, and needing to shift the power, but then in terms of operationalisation of it, implementing it, we're very slow. It is happening. But we need to speed it up a bit, because human lives are at risk. Things are getting worse, we can't wait for another five or 10 years to see another slight changes. And we also need to educate ourselves that that doesn't require so many complicated processes. Sometimes people are so afraid to make change, because we think: Oh, that will require such and such powers, and process, and bureaucracy, and paper. But then when you actually do it, it is very simple enough. It just requires having diplomatic dialogue, or thinking about the simplifying way of how do we do that. Things can be very simplified, and doable. But then, we overthink a lot and all the risks in the world. We have to think about what can go right instead of always thinking about what can go wrong. Also, of course, have to think about the risk management. Yes, we're talking about the people who are in vulnerable situations. How do we minimise the risks? But then we have to slowly think about what can go right, not about what can go wrong. Living in our comfort zone, so afraid to make something, and nobody move and change. So, it can happen and then we just have to be open in thinking about it, and strategising it, implementing it together.

Mazou  

If one looks at the number of crises that we see around the world, they are, unfortunately, increasing. Every morning, you wake up, there’s something else. Sometimes one wonders if the world is better today than it was a few years ago. It's clear that you see, looking at the number of people displaced, number that does if, as an indicator that you see that situation is worsening. That's why it is key to make sure that we do not find ourselves in a situation where you depend on humanitarian assistance for a long period of time. The funding will always be, will never be enough. So once a community becomes self-reliant, the whole power dynamic that we're talking about changes. Changes between displaced communities, host communities, between the so-called donor between the… it does change. And I think towards something that is a bit more positive than what one sees at the beginning of a crisis, of a displacement crisis.

Tameesuddin  

I cannot agree more about self-reliance, because it is not sustainable. It's not going to be there, as you said, the funding is not going to be there. But also the reality check, this kind of self-reliance thing, within how many years that we are anticipating that we will achieve that? Are we talking about a decade? Are we talking about a five-year plan? During this transition to this goal, how are we still navigating our power, partnership between people, impacted person, and without, you know, lived experience and even when we go and talk with this different government, different policymakers about localisation, integration, social economic inclusion of people with lived experience. Because, you know, for how many years now, in Sudan and different parts of Africa, the Civil War is ongoing. Thirty plus years. And then if people are going to be dependent on aid one day, if a very small portion of refugees get resettled, this refugee has lost some part of their life in the refugee camp without adapting into the reality outside of the world. And then, when and if, this refugee resettle, they are not equipped and ready to, you know, step into the reality and integrate, and then require a lot of effort for them again, wasting another decade to integrate. And then, if repatriation happen, these people because they lost their normal human development and connection in the confined refugee camp and all this constraint of socio-economic inclusion, then when they go back to their own community and country one day to rebuild their community, how can we expect them to be, you know, so resilient and, you know, equipped with the capacity that they need? So, while we celebrate how far we have come, it is also really always, always important to remind us: Yes, we've come now this far, looking back 10 years ago, but then forward looking to another five years, how does it going to look like? And how do we do this? Yes.

Mazou 

I agree. Hafsar, I fully agree with the point that you just made. On the number of years, I think it really depends on each situation. I've seen situations where somebody can be self-reliant in six months. 

Tameesuddin 

Yes.

Mazou

I've seen situations where people can be self-reliant in five years, in 10 years. The issue is often first to recognise from the beginning the potential for the person to become self-reliant, and that requires a bit of a shift in mindset on the part of the ones who are providing humanitarian assistance, in particular, to a shift from looking at somebody saying: This is somebody who needs assistance, and a shift to seeing the person as this is somebody who has a potential to become self-reliant, should be self reliant, but simply because of the circumstances, is not at the moment. And how does one get to that? As you're just saying, Hafsar, it's something that is done with the person who is being supported at the center of the discussion. It's a conversation between those who are providing, who are bringing that support to that person, to say: How can we help you become self-reliant? And this in all situations that I found myself in, first, it completely shifts the power relation. It shifts. And suddenly, the person in front of you says: Okay, so we are equal. We're discussing of how I become self-reliant. We're not discussing how you continue to provide me with humanitarian assistance. So big, big shift there. It requires, on the part of the humanitarian actors, a shift of mind, more training, of how you interact, because that power relation that we're talking about does, does change.

Srivastava  

Can I ask you to clarify, Raouf, you said when you're talking about there's a shift in having the person, the impacted person, the person with lived experience, participate in decisions around self-reliance, are you saying that that is a policy level decision at UNHCR, or are you just sort of seeing this happen randomly?

Mazou 

No, it's clearly a, it's a policy, and it's even in the partnership that we are establishing in various countries, the type of partners in which we are engaging are evolving. And in all countries around the world, what we are trying to do, what our colleagues are trying to do, is to have as early as possible a conversation on: How does one move towards self-reliance? Now, it's not new in the sense that refugee law is about ensuring that people are not discriminated against, even if they find themselves in a situation of displaced refugees or internal displacement. I’ll focus primarily on refugees now, and one of the rights of an individual is to make sure that the person can work, the person can be part of the economy. And, if one wants to achieve this, the policy must be one of making sure that you achieve self-reliance. And to achieve self-reliance, you must have that conversation with the person who is concerned. There is no way to achieve self-reliance if you do not discuss with a person who is the person with lived experience, as was said, or the person who requires that assistance.

Tameesuddin  

Well, in the region that I am focusing now, I have not come across yet with any lived-experienced person struggling to accept the fact that they have to become self-reliant. But what I have come across over and over again is that the systems and the policies and the legislations are forbidding them, not allowing them to be self-reliant. So there is a very big realisation. No one wants to depend on the aid and then unwanted and unwelcome, including myself, of course. I was a refugee. So, the problem is, in some countries' context, if you are found working in the somewhere workplace, you can be imprisoned and detained because it's illegal to work, and no one also, there is alternative paying for your food and rent, and displaced people are expected to survive. You can’t work. No one will pay for your food and rent. And if you are found working and contributing, you will be in prison and detained, and worst case scenario, deported back to the country where they never wanted you in the first place. So it is still, you know, the challenge is the power, yeah, because this podcast is about the power. The power between the people in the community themselves, and the people who are making the decision about the lives for these thousands and millions of displaced people are still so huge. And then, there is a very important roles for the people like Raouf and myself and others, you know, who have this connection and platform to be vocal and connect this dot, you know, look, what... If these people never wanted to become the burden? Can you do this? And it's become more than ever so important for us to work together and then, really, precisely, concisely, advocate to the government. Look, what do you want? If you don't want these people to work, if you don't want these people also to come to you, and no one is also feeding them, what do you want? Do you want to kill them? Or do you want to do something realistic and comprehensive that is also not being a burden to your country?  So, in terms of self-reliance, it is not about the will of the people not wanting to be self-reliant. It is all the policies, the legislation, the law, the resistance to this change, the resistance to see and the ignorance to see there is win-wins. There is a lot of positive outcomes for both communities, if and when, if people are allowed to socially, economically, included. So now, our responsibility and our job should be now focusing on why they resist them? Why there is the fear? Why are they being so ignorant towards this? And how do we, you know, bring them to realise and accept it and implement it?

Fundira

Raouf and Hafsar’s conversation took place in mid-2024, but the questions they’re tackling have only become more urgent. As governments in the Global North continue to lean further and further to the right, one tactic to consolidate power has proven to be particularly effective: scapegoating migrants and refugees. 

Tameesuddin

They find the most vulnerable group, the most marginalised group, and they then alter the hate and the anger and the frustration to this group: Look, because we have these people in our country, now you don't have enough. And then what the people do? They consume it, whatever the government feeds, and then they then show hostility, physical abuse, and all this, towards these vulnerable groups. So again, there is power. These people with lived experience, and refugees and forcibly displaced people have zero power to defend themselves and to tell the truth of why they are displaced.

Mazou 

I must say that in many places where I travel around the world, I see host communities willing to help, giving everything that they have. So, there is a tendency to talk about hate all over the world, which is amplified in social media, but still have people who cross borders, who are seeking asylum, and who are being received by communities and help and support. And I think that's important to underline that and to celebrate that.

Fundira

Can Hafsar and Raouf come to a common understanding of where the power to change refugee response lies? And might they even come up with new solutions together? That’s next time on Power Shift.

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Power Shift is a production of The New Humanitarian and the Center for Transformational Change

This podcast is hosted by me, Melissa Fundira, and moderated by Lina Srivastava. 

Power Shift is produced by Lina Srivastava, Freddie Boswell, and Melissa Fundira.

Our editor is Irwin Loy. 

Our theme song is Chill 2.0 by Barno.

Sound engineering by Tevin Sudi.

You can find transcripts of all podcasts on our website: thenewhumanitarian.org/podcast

If you or anyone you know would like to participate in future Power Shift conversations, email us at [email protected] with the subject line: POWER SHIFT. Thank you for joining us on Power Shift.