Draft report of the committee on Land and Property Rights (Feb. 24th, 2003)

PROGRAMME ON LAND AND PROPERTY DRAFT REPORT ENGLISH TRANSCIPT FEBRUARY 24 2003 MUSIC MIC: Welcome to this programme, produced by the Nairobi-based radio service of IRIN… IRIN, the humanitarian news agency of the United Nations. Land and property rights are one of the core issues of the Somali conflict. At the peace conference in Kenya, a technical committee has been working on this question. In this programme, we will be looking at its work. SHORT MUSIC The peace talks started in Eldoret, Kenya last October, and have now moved to Nairobi. Six technical committees are finalizing their reports, which will be submitted to the conference. In our last programme, we looked at the draft report of the technical committee on Economic Recovery. Other committees are looking at federalism, disarmament, conflict resolution and international relations. The Land and Property Rights committee has now produced a draft report. Gunther Schlee of Germany is a resource person for the committee. IRIN spoke to him on the 'phone, and asked what are the most important points of the draft report… SCHLEE (VOICEOVER) It has been agreed by the committee in this draft that properties are to be given back to whichever owner had them before, that former public properties have to be given back to the State, and that former individually held farmlands have to be given back to the prior owners. So that is an important principle. It has also been acknowledged that the ordinary judiciary will not be able to deal with all these cases. For one year after the conclusion of the peace conference, whenever that may be, there will be special committees set up to deal with these issues. It has been laid down that representatives of the local administration, of the police and local dignitaries or elders would be represented there in certain proportions. There’s more than one sort of committee foreseen, but all this has been broken down in this draft report. MIC: The draft report calls on those still holding properties by force to return them to their rightful owners before they face legal action. But it also recommends the creation of special committees to deal with land and property disputes, for a period of one year after a new government is formed. Ali Ismail Abdi Gur is chairman of the technical committee on Land and Property Rights… Ali Ismail We set up two arbiter committees which will work when the government is set up. These two committees will deal with properties held by force. One is assigned to deal with the disputed land in the urban areas and the other one is dealing with the arguments over the farming areas. The committees will follow a system and mechanism. But their work does not include the case of government property; the government will get back its property unconditionally. So if the parties do not accept the decision of the arbiter committee, then the case will be moved to the courts, so as to ensure respect for the law. MIC: These committees are to deal with cases related to land and property allegedly grabbed since 1991. The draft report of the technical committee says two such committees should be set up in each district, within one month of the establishment of a new government. One committee would deal with conflict resolution on land and settlement, while the other would handle disputes over farmland. The committees would have the power to hand down decisions, but the draft report says their decisions could be appealed to a competent court within ten days. Otherwise, it says, the committees' rulings would stand. So would some of those holding land and property by force return it voluntarily? IRIN put the question to Hasan Farah, a Somali researcher at the University of Nairobi… Hasan Farah Yes, I think Somalis would return the seized properties, because Somalis are Muslim people, and I am telling you, these people holding properties were misguided, they were told that the property of the urban areas belonged to them. They come from the rural areas and there was poverty, so they don’t have a place to go back to. However, if a government is set up and everything is placed in order, there reasons compelling people to return the properties: firstly because they are Muslim, and secondly because Somalis are all brothers related to each other. The government must get its property unconditionally. So I believe the people will return the held properties. MUSIC TRANSITION MIC: The technical committee's draft report says that land and property grabbing started in Somalia during the colonial days, if not before. It also recommends mechanisms to deal with disputes relating to the colonial era, when Somalia was under Italian rule, and from 1960 to 1990 under the Siad Barre government. But resource person Gunther Schlee of Germany says the problem is especially big because of the ongoing civil war… SCHLEE (VOICEOVER) What makes the scale of the land issue in Somalia really massive is the lack of government for the last twelve years, since 1991, and the fact that entire areas have been occupied by militias, that public buildings have been appropriated by private power holders of some sort, that populations of entire villages have been expelled from their lands or have been reduced to a type of slavery on their own former lands which have been occupied by others. All this makes it unique, I think, and makes the scale of the problem in the case of Somalia really massive. MIC: Land and property grabbing in Somalia has affected men and women alike, but the draft report says special attention should be given to the rights of women. Amina Ali Musa is one of the three female members of the committee. In a telephone interview, she spoke to IRIN about this… AMINA I see think it as a good idea to give special attention to the women, as it was women who suffered most in the last ten years: their husbands and brothers have been killed and they need special attention because women have taken all the responsibility in the families. So they have a right to be treated with kindness and attention. MIC: IRIN also asked resource person Gunther Schlee why the committee was recommending special attention to the land and property rights of Somali women… SCHLEEMIX4 (VOICEOVER) The point is that with the high male mortality through warfare, you have many female held properties and you have many single mothers as breadwinners for their children. And special attention has to be paid to the property claims of this group. It should not be allowed that they be forced to act only through male representatives, they should have their own voice. And also, properties that had been appropriated by the State at one stage and then misappropriated by office-holders of the State or other forces, and which now should be shared out again to individuals, in this case of re-allocation of public property, a proportion should be given to females directly and not just to any putative male representatives of the females in question. MIC: Women at the conference are pushing for quotas to ensure women's representation in new institutions. This appears to be a controversial issue. But the Land and Property Rights' committee is recommending this. Here is Amina Ali Musa again… AMINA We women wrote a letter saying that women must be given 25% of seats in the parliament, and we said that women and men have the same rights to land and property. Somali women are pleased with our efforts, and they cannot be neglected. JINGLE 1 MIC: Another issue raised by the committee is the problem of Somali land and property that has been taken by force and moved abroad. So how big is this problem? IRIN put the question to resource person Gunther Schlee of Germany… SCHLEE 3 (VOICEOVER) Aeroplanes have been dismantled and sold as scrap metal, ships have gone missing and factories have been dismantled and sold. There’s been all sorts of large-scale robbery which involved transfer of property or dealings with individuals in other countries, and to trace all these properties and to establish all these cases will require trans-national and international investigations. The criminal investigation departments of more than one country will have to cooperate closely on these issues. MIC: One of the six technical committees making recommendations to the peace conference is working on International Relations. We will look at the work of this and the other technical committees in future programmes. And that brings us almost to the end of this programme on the draft report of the technical committee on Land and Property Rights at the Somalia peace conference. Thank you for listening. This programme was brought to you by the radio service of IRIN... IRIN, the humanitarian news agency of the United Nations. The programme was produced with support of the European Commission. MUSIC BARNAAMIJ KU SAABSAN WARBIXINTA AAN RASMIGA AHAYN EE GUDIGA XUQUUQDA DHULKA IYO LAHAANSHAHA QORAALKA SOOMAALIGA FEBRAAYO 2003 MUSIC (KIDUMU) MIC: Ku soo dhawaada dhageystayaal Barnaamijkan oo uu soo saaray Raadiyaha IRIN ee Wakaalada Wararka Bin’aadanimada u Qaabilsan Jamciyada Quruumaha ka dhaxeysa oo xaruuntiisu ay tahay magaalada Nairobi. Xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha waa mid ka mid ah arrimaha muhiimka ah sidii xal looga gaari lahaa khilaafka ka taagan Soomaalia, Shirka Nabada Soomaalida ee ka soconaya dalka Kenya ayaa gudi Farsamo waxa uu ka shaqeynayay arintaasi, hadaba Barnaamijkan waxaanu ku eegi doonaa Hawsha gudigaasi Xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha. SHORT MUSIC Wada hadalka nabada Soomaaliya waxa uu ka bilawday Magaalada Eldoret ee dalka Kenya bartamihii bishii Ocrober sanadkii hore waxaana iminka loo soo wareejiyey Nairobi, lixda gudi ee farsamo ayaa iminka soo gabagabeynaya warbixinadooda iyaga oo usoo gudbin doona shirweynaha. Barnaamijkeenii ugu danbeeyey waxaanu ku eegnay warbixinta aan rasmiga ahayn ee uu soo saaray gudiga farsamo ee dib u dhiska dhaqaalaha Soomaaliya, gudiyada kale ayaa iyaguna waxa ay ka shaqeynayaan arrimo ay ka mid yihiin, Hanaanka isu taga dawliga ah ee Federalism-ka, hubka dhigista, xalinta khilaafaadka, iyo cilaaqaadka caalamiga ah. Gudiga farsamada ee xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha waxa uu iminka soo saaray warbixin aan rasmi ahayn. Gunther Schlee waa khabiir dhalashadiisu tahay Germany, waxaana talooyin uu siinayay gudiga. IRIN ayaa khadka taleefoonka kula hadashay waxaana weydiisay waa maxay arrimaha ugu muhiimsan warbixinta gudiga … SCHLEE2 (VOICEOVER) "Wuxuu isku raacay gudiga warbixinta aan rasmiga ahayn in hanti kasta loo celiyo qofkii hore u lahaa, hantidii guud ee shacabkana loo celiyo Dawlada iyo in qofkii hore u heystay beer uu u celiyo milkiilaha hore u lahaa. Taasi waa arin muhiim ah, waxaa kaloo la isla gartay in maxkamada caadiga ah aysan arintan wax ka qaban Karin. Hal sano kadib marka la soo gabagabeeyo shirka Nabada xilli kasta oo ay noqoto waxaa la dhisi doonaa gudiyo arimahan ka shaqeeya. Dad ka socda maamulada hoose, ciidanka booliiska, dadka deegaanka magaca ku leh iyo odoyaasha ay ku jiri doonaan gudiyadaasi dhamaan waxaa hawlahooda lagu sheegay warbixinta aan rasmiga ahayn ee gudiga. MIC: Warbixinta aan rasmiga ahayn ee gudiga waxa ay ugu baaqday dhamaan dadka hantida xooga ku heysta inay u celiyaan milkiilayaashii xaqa u lahaa, ka hor inta aan laga qaadin talaabo sharciga waafaqsan, waxaa sidoo kale warbixintu ay soo jeedineysaa in la dhiso gudiyo gaar ah oo ka shaqeeya arrimaha dhulka iyo hantida la isku heysto, mudo hal sano gudaheed ah kadib marka dawlada cusub la dhiso. Ali Ismail Abdi Giir waa gudoomiyaha gudiga farsamo ee xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha... Ali Ismail Track 8 "Waxaanu sameynay marka dhulka magaalo iyo beer loo kala qaado waxa la heysto ee Soomaalida inta badan waa sidaas, gudiyo farsamo ayaa loo sameeyey oo gudiga arbiter committee la yiraahdo oo waqtiga dawlada dhalato sameys ma hayo gduigaasi dhinaca beerahan gudi baa loo sameeyey dhinaca maagoolyinka dhulalka banana gudi ayaa loo sameeyey, farsamo hab nidaam oo ay raacayaan waa loo sameeyey, labada qof inay intaa ugu dhameeyaan arrimahooda iyo inay wixii dawlad iyaga looma sameyn, gud dhexdhexaadin dawlad baa leh shuruud la’aan wixii dadka dhaxeeyey waa in dawladu ay gacanta ku dhigtaa laakiin wixii dadka ka dhexeeyey waxaa loo sameeyey labaadis gudi, gudina raacay beeraha gudina raacayo magaalooyinka, marka dhameyn waayaan labada dhinac ama ay ku kalsoonaan waayaan maxkamad sharci in la horgeeyo oo ay ku dhameyso sida shaciga waafaqsan. MIC: Gudiyadaasi waxa ay wax ka qabanayaan arrimaha la xiriira xuquuqda dhulka iyo hantida la kala qaatay ilaa 1991. warbixinta aan rasmiga ahayn ee gudiga farsamadu waxa ay sheegeysaa in laba gudi laga dhisayo degmo kasta, mudo bil gudaheed ah kadib marka la dhiso dawlada cusub. Mid ka mid ah gudiyadaasi waxa uu qaabilsan yahay xalinta khilaafaadka ku saabsan dhulka magaalooyinka ee la degan yahay, halka kan kalena uu wax ka qaban doono muranka dhulka beeralayda ah. gudiyadu waxa ay yeelanayaan awood ay ku gaaraan go’aan, laakiin warbixintu waxa ay sheegeeysaa in go’aanadooda rafcaan looga qaadan karo maxkamada awooda u leh mudo toban maalmood gudahood ah, hadii kale waxaa taagnaanaya sida warbixintu sheegeeyso go’aanka gudiga. Si kastaba ha ahaatee dadku ma isku celinayaan hantida la kala heysto, IRIN waxa ay su’aashaasi weydiisay Hassan Farah Shirwa oo ah aqoonyahan wax ku bartay Jaamicada Nairobi University, isla markaana baaritaan ku sameeya arrimaha Soomaaliya… Hasan Farah Track 12 " Haa waxaan u malaynayaa inay dadku hantida isku celinayaan, waayo dadka Soomaaliyeed waa dad Islaam ah waxa aan kuu sheegayaa dadkaan marka hore waa la qalday qaar ayaa waxaa lagu soo dagaal geliyey, dadka magaalooyinka dagan waxa ay heystaan inay iyaga leeyihiin dadka miyiga laga soo sdagaal geliyey, dadkii waa la lumiyey hadana faqri ayaa dhacay dadkii meel ay ku noqdaan malaha laakiin marka dawlada la dhiso oo wax la habeeyo. Dhawr sababaood ayaa qasbaya indadaku hantida isku celiyaan awalan dadka waa islaam ah, marka labaadna waa dad soomaali ah waa wada dhasheen, waa dada walaalo ah hantida waa isku hayaan. Dawalada waxeedanada nina ka baryi meyso hadii la dhiso, hantidii dawlada waa lasoo celinayaa, marka waxaan aaminsanahay in dadaku wax isku celin doonaan. MUSIC TRANSITION ("Homeless"?) MIC: Warbixinta gudiga xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha waxa ay qortay in dhulka iyo hantida la kala heysto ay ka bilaabatay Soomaliya xilligii gumeysiga, hadii aysan ka horeynba, waxaana ay sheegeeysaa warbixintu in loo baahnaanayo qaab farsamooyin oo wax looga qabto muranada dhulka ee la xiriira xilligii gumeysiga ee Soomaaliya ay ku hoos jirtey maamulkii talyaaniga. Iyo weliba xilligii dawladii Siad Barre. Gunther Schlee oo ah khabiirka Caa;lami ah ee la shaqeynayay gudiga ayaa sheegaya in waxa dhibaatada sii weyneeyey ay tahay dagaalka sokeeye ee iska sii socda … SCHLEEMIX 1 (VOICEOVER) " Waxa dhibaatada weyn ka dhigay arinta ku saabsan dhulka, xaqiiqdii waa iyadoo aysan dawlad ka jirin Soomaaliya laba iyo toban sano, ilaa 1991, maliishiyo ayaa meel kasta qabsatay, dhismayaashii Dawlada waxaa laga dhigay kuwo si gaar ah loo leeyahay, bulsho dhan oo deegaan ku nooleeyd ayaa laga saaray dhulkoodii ama noqday nooc adoonsi oo kale inay uga shaqeeyaan beerahoodii oo ay dad kale heystaan, dhamaan arrimahaasi ayaa hal ka dhigay xaalada sidaan u malaynayo dhibaatada Soomaaliyana sii weeyneeyay xaqiiqdii. MIC: Somalia Hantida iyo dhulka la kala dhacay isku si ayay u saameysay Raga iyo haweenkaba, Warbixinta Gudiga Xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha waxa ay soo jeedisay in si gaar ah loo eego xuquuqda lahaanshaha ee Haweenka. Amina Ali Musa Waxa ay ka mid tahay sadex xubnood oo haweenka uga jira gudiga Xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha, IRIN ayaa khadka taleefoonka kula hadashay…. AMINA1 " Walaahi si fiican baan u arkaa hadii dumarka si qaas ah looga fakaro, weyna tahay, tobankii sano dadkii dhibaateeysnaa waa iyaga, dadkii waxaad ogtahay ku dhacay waa iyaga ninkoodii ayaa dhimanaayay, walaalkeed baa dhimanaya oo inankeedii baa dhimanayay, si gaar ah in loo eego oo dalkeey wadeen, dadkeey wadeen, caruurteey korinayeen oo wey dhalayeen, in si gaar ah loo eego oo si gaar ah il naxariis loogu eego haweenka xaq bey u leeyihiin taas. MIC: IRIN waxaa sidoo kale ay weydiisay khabiirka caalamiga ah ee gudiga Gunther Schlee sababta dareen gaar ah loo siiyey xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha ee Haweenka Soomaaliyeed. … SCHLEEMIX4 (VOICEOVER) Arintu waxa weeye in rag badan ay ku dhinteen xilligii dagaalka lagu jiray, waxaa jira haween badan oo laga heysto hanti, waxaa kaloo jira hooyooyin kaligood ah oo la haglama rootiga caruurtooda, si gaar ah ayaa arintan loo eegay sidii loo siin lahaa hantida ay xaqa u leeyihiin haweenka, bixinayo mana loo ogolaanayo in lagu qasbo in ragu matalaan, laakiin waa in iyaga ay codkooda ku hadlaan,mida kale hantida markii hore dawlada ay bixisay ee ay iminka dib loo qoondeynayo waa in qeybtooda ay ka helaan si toos ah oo aysan cid kale matalin. MIC: Haweenka shirka ka qeybgalaya waxa ay dadaal ugu jiraan sidii ay u xaqiijin lahaayeen in door wanaagsan ka matalaan hey’adaha maamulka cusub. Arintaasi oo u muuqata mid la isku khilaafsan yahay, laakiin gudiga xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha waxa uu soo jeedinayaa in arintaasi muhiimada la siiyo, waa tan mar kale Amina Ali Musa…. AMINA2 "Hadaanu nahay haweenka waxaanu qornay warqad in shan iyo toban xubnood laga siiyo loo qoondeeyo sidii tii Jabuuti 25% in la siiyo haweenka wixii Baarlamaanka kasoo baxaaya, hase ahaatee maadaam aan qornay xuquuda lahaan shaha dhulka raga iyo dumar waa u siman yihiin, wey ku qanacsan yihiin wax soo saarkayagi inaan haweenkii xusna. Dee inagana meel aan joogno haween ma lagu baabi’in karo, haween baanu nahay oo aan kaga tirsanahay JINGLE 1 MIC: Arin kale ee gudigu soo hadal qaaday waxa weeye dhibaatada hantida iyo Dhulka Soomaaliya ee si xoog ah dibedaha loogu qaatay, hadaba intee ayay la’eg tahay dhibaatadaasi. IRIN waxa ay su’aashaasi weydiisay Gunther Schlee….. SCHLEE 3 (VOICEOVER) " Diyaaradihii ayaa la furfuray oo birahoodii la sii iibiyey, maraakiib ayaa maqan, warshado ayaa la fufruray oo birahoodii la iibgeeyey. Dhibaato weyn ayaa jirta oo nooc kasta ah oo hantidii qaranka lagu dhacay taasoo shaqsiyaad wadamo kale ay u gudbiyeen. Si loo baadi goobo dhamaan hantidaasi, kiisaskaasina loo bilaabo waxaa loo baahanayaa baaritaan weyn oo caalami ah. Qeybaha danbi baarista ee in ka badan hal wadan waa in si toos ah ay si wada jir ah iskala sheeqaan arrimahan. (FULL TRANSCRIPT PLEASE) MIC: Mid ka mid ah lixda gudi ee farsamo waxa uu talooyin uga soo bixinayaa shirka nabada Soomaalida arrimo ku saabsan cilaaqaadka caalamiga ah. Barnaamijyadeena soo socda ayaanan ku eegi doonaa hawsha gudigaasi iyo gudiyada kale ee farsamo. Intaa ayaana kusoo gabagabeyneynaa Barnaamijkan aynu kaga hadlaynay warbixinta aan rasmiga ahayn ee gudiga farsamada xuquuqda dhulka iyo lahaanshaha ee shirka dib u heshiisiinta Soomaalida. Waad ku mahadsantihiin dhageysiga Barnaamijkan oo uu idiin soo gudbiyey Raadiyaha IRIN ee Wakaalada wararka Bini’aadanimada Qaramada Midoobay, Barnaamijka soo saaristiisa waxaa gacan ka geystay Midawga Reer Yurub. MUSIC