IRIN Interview with President Yoweri Museveni

In a wide-ranging interview with IRIN in Kampala this week, President Yoweri Museveni addressed issues such as his country’s relations with Rwanda, the war in DRC, relations with Sudan and the general situation in Uganda. Q: What did the Mwanza meeting [in Tanzania between the Rwandan and Ugandan presidents] achieve regarding the easing of tension between Uganda and Rwanda? A: Well, if the decisions are implemented it is a breakthrough. It builds on the base of my previous agreements with [Rwandan] President [Paul] Kagame last year, when we agreed to divide Kisangani into sectors. This, however, is more radical than the previous agreements because it bases itself on the joint statement of the government of Rwanda and the government of Uganda in conjunction with the United Nations Security Council delegation to the region, agreed upon on 8 May. This calls for the demilitarisation of Kisangani. If it is implemented, surely this problem will be resolved. It is particularly important that this time we are involving the United Nations, it is not between Uganda and Rwanda only. Q: However, fighting broke out in Kisangani after the Mwanza meeting. Does this threaten all initiatives agreed upon in the last few weeks? A: There was a small infiltration around one of the UPDF [Ugandan People’s Defence Force] camps. Of course it is also wrong. I don’t know what those Rwandese were trying to do around the UPDF camp. They are the ones who fired a machine gun and our people replied with an RPG. That was all, it was very brief but still unnecessary. Q: Are we seeing the end of the alliance between Uganda and Rwanda and if so, who is to blame? A: I really don’t want to go into these details because we have not discussed these matters. But there is nothing that is at the point of no return, everything can be re-arranged. But I do not want to go into whys because we have not discussed them. Q: Can you confirm there has been a breakdown of communication between you and your long- term friend Paul Kagame, the Rwandan president? A: Well, friendship in politics is based on interests. Since the clashes in Kisangani last year, which were not quickly resolved, which [is something] I had hoped for, there has not been the same warmth [as] before. We should therefore work to resolve them [our relations] and there will be no more problems at all. Q: There is a view that the tension has been created by individual officers on both sides? A: I do not think so. There are some fundamental disagreements, because some of the problems happened when some of those actors were not around. There are some basic disagreements, maybe they are exacerbated by those actors. But there some fundamental disagreements which, again, I would not like to go into now. Q: To what extent is the support for different rebel groups by Uganda and Rwanda responsible for the Kisangani clashes? A: I think that is one factor, how to relate to the Congolese. If we were relating to the Congolese in the same way, I think that would minimise conflict. But because we are relating to the Congolese in different ways, this is one of the sources of conflict, so it is not just personality clashes. Q: Has Uganda accomplished the mission that prompted sending troops to the Democratic Republic of Congo? And what is the timeframe for a troop withdrawal? A: We have not yet fully accomplished what took us to Congo, but we have achieved a lot. You remember we defeated the Sudanese in Gbadolite, their defeat actually might have played some role in the downfall of [ex-parliamentary speaker] Tourabi in Sudan. Therefore the Sudanese factor in Congo has been completely diminished. The [rebel] ADF [Allied Democratic Forces] group which they had infiltrated into Congo before we went in has also been greatly weakened, though it is yet to be wholly eliminated. The ADF is no longer able to get supplies from Kabila or the Sudanese. So our Congo mission has been partially accomplished. Q: Has Uganda re-arranged its position in the region, by changing alliances from Rwanda to Zimbabwe, Angola and Congolese President Kabila? A: No, no. Of course you should remember that for us we don’t have a long term problem with Angola and Zimbabwe, because these are comrades we fought alongside to eliminate colonialism. So our quarrel is a limited one, on Congo and to some extent to Rwanda and Burundi, because they appear not to be sensitive to the genocide that has characterised these two countries. They seem not to care very much and yet they don’t want to keep out. If they did not care but kept out of regional issues, I would not mind. But they are indifferent to this suffering of the people of Rwanda and Burundi, and yet they want to play an active role in the region.This is my disagreement with them, but not on other issues, so it is a limited disagreement. That is why I support the Lusaka agreement strongly because it had reunited us, the freedom fighters, who had been divided by Congo. So by being on good terms with Zimbabwe and Angola, we are not diverting from our policy of opposing genocide and sectarianism in the Great Lakes region. We oppose both, such as in the case of Burundi we don’t agree that the Tutsi should monopolise power forever under the banner of Tutsi security. We also don’t agree that the Hutu should exterminate the Tutsi as had been the ideology. But that does not mean that we should be in permanent contradictions with Zimbabwe and Angola because we don’t have long-term contradictory interests. Q: Does Zimbabwe still work with Uganda in supporting the Sudanese People’s Liberation Army (SPLA)? A: They sympathise with them, but now they are diverted because they are busy with Congo. But morally they sympathise with them. Q: The inter-Congolese dialogue is central to the Congo peace process, but it has failed to take off. Whom do you blame? A: Kabila of course is a problem, because he does not see the need for a quick resolution of this problem. Yet the longer he waits the more complicated the situation in his country becomes. I believe dialogue is the only way forward. Even if Kabila was completely overthrown, still those who would succeed him would have to have a dialogue. Whether the dialogue includes Kabila or not, there must one. Q: Can you assess the progress in the implementation of the Lusaka agreement since it was signed last year? A: It will succeed because I have heard that even Kabila has allowed [ex-Botswanan] president Masire to organise the inter-Congolese dialogue. If one party blocks the dialogue it should be isolated. Q: Will your government cooperate with the United Nations panel set up to investigate the exploitation of Congo’s natural resources? A: Oh, that will be very good, because they will find out that Uganda has got nothing out of that Congo. I would declare two sticks which were brought to me by [rebel leader, Jean-Pierre] Bemba, a tall one and a short one. I would declare these walking sticks to the United Nations to show that we got nothing out of Congo. Q: As a chairman of a regional initiative on the Burundi peace process, are you pleased with the progress made by the mediator Nelson Mandela? A: Yes, he is moving very well, I think all the issues have been covered. I don’t have the latest but when we met in Arusha the four committees they had set up, had covered much of the work. There were a few things remaining but I discussed them with [Burundi] President Buyoya when we met here, I don’t remember the details but we agreed actually. Q: Does the region have any moral authority to compel the Burundi parties to the conflict to stick to the negotiations, especially after the fighting between the Ugandan and Rwandan armies in Kisangani? A: No, but the region is not Rwanda and Uganda. There is Tanzania, of course it would be better if we are all involved. Q: What is the current status of the negotiations with Sudan, organised by the Carter center? A: Nothing, there is no progress. Q: Collapsed, suspended, how can you characterise the talks? A: For us, we did our part. We released their prisoners of war, but they have not returned our children, they have not stopped giving material assistance to [Ugandan rebel leader Joseph] Kony. So there is no progress on their side. At one time they said we should restore diplomatic ties, but we said no unless they stop supporting terrorists. Q: There is a worry that northern Uganda will be heavily militarised with the new government policy of giving other tribes guns to fight off the Karamajong warriors. A: These are local defence units, and are part of our security system. Even in Karamoja we have them there. It is very good and has helped to maintain security in the area. Q: You are currently going around the country campaign for the movement system in this year’s referendum. How soon do you think multiparty politics will be restored? A: It is up to the masses, the main argument against multiparty politics is that it promotes sectarianism. In future when people sense that sectarianism is no more, I think people will have no problem with voting for a multiparty political system. Q: How far have you gone with the idea of a political federation in east and central Africa? A: I support an East African political federation, so that East African countries, Rwanda and Burundi are together. Later Congolese leaders and freedom fighters can be approached so that an East and Central African politician union can be a reality. This arrangement would solve the question of bad politics, insecurity and markets. Last year I wrote a paper to the movement conference here proposing what I have said in terms of forming a political union in this region, and when the delegates meet next year, they’ll take a position on the matter.