Rethinking Humanitarianism | An exit talk with UNRWA’s Philippe Lazzarini

Philippe Lazzarini 

It's a feeling of deep frustration, of anger about the inaction. The inaction is like silence sometimes, and amounts to nothing else: just complicity.

Tammam Aloudat

Welcome to Rethinking Humanitarianism, a show that explores the future of aid in a world of rising crisis. 

 

I’m your host Tammam Aloudat, CEO of The New Humanitarian.

 

As head of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, Philippe Lazzarini has watched Israel wage war on Palestinians in Gaza…

 

Lazzarini 

72,000 people killed, many more unaccounted for. Gaza has been reduced into rubble, and just misery. It's difficult for people there to project a better future.

 

Aloudat

And, the West Bank…

Lazzarini 

The settler violence has been completely unleashed, and remained without any consequences. There is a sense of total impunity prevailing. And, if you look at the settlement extension, it has accelerated to the extent that today, we can speak about the de facto annexation of the West Bank. 

 

Aloudat

And his organisation, UNRWA which provides essential services to Palestinians, has also suffered.

Lazzarini 

The staff of UNRWA have been killed. Premises have been destroyed. Others had life-sustained injuries. Others have been arrested, tortured and released. In total impunity.

 

Aloudat

Lazzarini has seen Israel destroy Gaza in its ongoing genocide, and target UNRWA, while global leaders, and often, humanitarians, stand on the sidelines.

 

He ended his term as Commissioner-General of UNRWA on April 1st. Today on Rethinking Humanitarianism, he sits down with me in our Geneva office for an exit interview. 

 

And, if you have any questions or comments, stick around for the credits to find out how to reach us at Rethinking Humanitarianism.

Aloudat 

Philippe, thank you very much for joining us today.

Lazzarini

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Aloudat

And, through your tenure, you've been careful with language. I mean, you've went further than others. You've quoted the the International Court of Justice findings on a plausible genocide. You referenced the Commission of Inquiry. And, you said in February that the destruction is tantamount to ethnic cleansing. You're leaving UNRWA, so I want to ask you directly, do you believe that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, and is what is happening in the West Bank, ethnic cleansing?

Lazzarini

You know, there have been many scholars or human rights organisations who have defined what happened in Gaza as a genocide, and we have now the South African case, a submission to the International Court of Justice, so there will be a determination whether it is or not. But, I have been quite vocal in the past saying that there is no doubt that there have been genocidal behavior taking place in the context of Gaza. But sometimes, just talking about one word seems not to encapsulate also the entirety of the sufferings the people have gone through. And, I think during my tenure, we tried as much as possible to be precise in relaying the suffering of the people. When it comes to the ethnical cleansing – you know, it's not a legal term, per se – but it is true that we have seen forced displacement regularly in the context of Gaza. Even the situation today, the fact that the entire population is part on the eastern side of the yellow line, is a forced displacement, because people cannot be beyond this line. And what's going on in the West Bank today, all the refugees in the camps in the north, in Jenin, Tulkarem, are not allowed to go back, so they have been forcibly displaced, and they're prevented to come back. Now, I believe that the situation in the West Bank is becoming more and more unbearable for the Palestinians who are living in a constant atmosphere of fear, and certainly the objective behind it is to incite the Palestinian to leave, also, the West Bank.

Aloudat

I agree. You said recently that UNRWA was not widely known before October 2023 as an institution. I grew up in Damascus, and UNRWA was part of our lives because we had Yarmouk and other camps which were urban settlements effectively, and we know UNRWA schools, and UNRWA clinics, and so on. And now, almost three years into this, by the time of this recording, 391 aid workers have been killed, and 310 are UNRWA personnel, and 81 persons supporting UNRWA. This is the highest toll of death in any conflict of a single UN agency. How do you deal with this loss?

Lazzarini 

Of course, there is a lot of sadness, but there is also bitterness. There is also anger, because all this has taken place without any consequences. I remember having already written to the president of the General Assembly in December 2023, and at that time, we had 130 of our colleagues who were killed. And I said, I would never have expected that in 35 years of a career in complex emergencies, that I would write a letter where I predict that more of our staff colleagues will be killed. Now we are two years later, the number has just tripled. 

Aloudat

And, just to put it in context, 391 is a massive number. This is higher than…

Lazzarini

It's totally unheard. It has never, ever happened. In the entire history of the United Nation, this has never happened.

Aloudat 

Do you believe this was intentional – the targeting of staff of UNRWA was an intentional act by Israel? You've said before that you've confronted a rhetoric by the Israeli officials that Hamas is Gaza, Gaza is UNRWA, and therefore UNRWA must be Hamas. Obviously, from the decisions that were made, Israel has insistently wanted to kill UNRWA as an organisation. They've outlawed you, and they've destroyed your headquarters, and so on. But, do you believe that targeting of UNRWA staff was intentional? This number, is it an accident of an all-out war, or is it an intention to actually target and kill?

Lazzarini

I mean, we had one case of a summary execution of a staff who was with 15 other Red Crescent workers, who also have been summary executed. I have no doubt about this. For the other staff, it's very difficult to know if yes or not, they have been collateral at the wrong place, at the wrong time, or if they have been targeted, only investigation will determine this. Having said that, too many of our premises have been hit where they should be protected, and many of our staff have also been killed while in UNRWA premises.

Aloudat

And, to remind our listeners, the incident you mentioned of the summary execution is the one that happened just over a year ago, that was the killing of 15 aid workers. And, a recent investigation by forensic architects and others, has shown that some of them were shot directly at a couple of metres distance. They were in clearly marked vehicles and were killed directly. In October 2024, the Knesset passed legislation banning UNRWA from operating in occupied territories. It came to force on January 2026...

Lazzarini

We have to be precise on this one...

Aloudat

Please.

Lazzarini

There are two bills. One prevents any operation and presence of UNRWA in the sovereign territory of Israel, and Israel considers occupied East Jerusalem as part of the sovereign territory. So, one bill concerns East Jerusalem.

Aloudat

And this is where they destroyed the headquarters.

Lazzarini

This is exactly where they have stormed and destroyed the headquarters. 

Aloudat

Yes.

Lazzarini

And the second bill is the one which prevents any official relation between the State of Israel and officials from UNRWA. As a consequence, we do not have any bureaucratic or administrative relation with the State of Israel, which means we do not have any more international staff present in the West Bank or in Gaza, because no visa can be processed.

Aloudat

Because applying for visas is part of the official...

Lazzarini

Exactly.

Aloudat 

Okay. Can you still supply material supplies in Occupied Territories?

Lazzarini

So, we have to understand that the government of Israel wants the international community to believe that UNRWA can be replaced, and has been replaced. So, if we look at Gaza, for example, it is true that UNRWA is not in a position anymore to bring supply in, and to have a large scale of food distribution. This has been taken over by other specialised organisations such as the World Food Program. But in reality, UNRWA is primarily an organisation providing human development services to the population, such as public health or education. Today, we still have a very strong workforce in Gaza. We have also the expertise community trust, and we have expanded, in fact, our activities related to public health and also education activities in the strip. These activities are not related or dependent on trucks, convoys, entering into Gaza. Same applies in the West Bank. Our school are still running. Our health centres are still open.

Aloudat 

And to go back to the early days of the conflict, three months after October 7, in January 2024, Israel passed you allegations – and in my understanding, initially verbally – that 12 UNRWA staff had participated in the attacks on October 7th. On the same day you received them, you terminated their contracts. In hindsight, would you do it the same way if the situation was repeated?

Lazzarini 

I would definitely do the same way. The decision at that time was taken because of the interest of the agency, but beyond the agency, to maintain our ability to serve and assist millions of people across the region, and in the extraordinary divisive and emotional context we were evolving, not taking any decision would have certainly led to ending of any funding to the agency. And, as you know, an agency like ours with 30,000 staff across the region, if you have no funding, you cannot operate anymore. So, at that time, I was also clear that we will go through a reverse due process, but we have to safeguard, first in this context, our ability to maintain our operation across the region, not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank, in Lebanon, in Syria, and in Jordan.

Aloudat 

So, to understand what you're saying, you said the due process would have been an investigation, and then that determination?

Lazzarini

It has…normally, the due process would mean you might temporarily suspend the staff. You have an investigation, and you have the conclusion of the investigation. At that time, even by taking the decision we have taken, 15 countries - 60 percent of our donor base - indicated that they are temporarily freezing any contribution to the agency, and the only way for them to resume was to be reassured that the agency has a real strong mechanism to deal with this kind of allegation, which we have demonstrated by a review of all our internal system. That was a review of Catherine Colonna, the former minister of Foreign Affairs of France, which came out with a number of recommendations that we have immediately embraced and started to implement. But, one of the conclusion of this report was to say the system and mechanism in place are much more robust than the average of any other organisation operating in the region, but because of our massive footprint, and because of the extraordinary, complex, divisive environment we are dealing with, we should reinforce some of the system already in place, and this is exactly what we have done.

Aloudat

And, you mentioned that 15 countries suspended their donor relationship with UNRWA after those allegations – some of them resumed afterwards – and those included the US, Germany, the EU as a body, and donor states, including Switzerland, where we are sitting today. They did that, despite having terminated the contracts of the staff that have allegations against them, and before they even heard findings of the investigation. What was their argument?

Lazzarini

You know, it's a little bit more complex, because we have to go back to the overall assault against the agency. It was not just a question of this allegation, but there have been also constant allegation of total infiltration of Hamas or other groups within the organisation. So, you have a number of countries who, as a precaution, say: wait a minute, can we be reassured that this is not the case? Because that was a narrative promoted by the government of Israel. There was a massive disinformation campaign going on. So, after three months, we had the first group of countries resuming. The others followed. Only one never came back. The United States. All the other countries have resumed. But we have also to be aware of one thing, UNRWA, like the issue of Israel [and] Palestine, is a divisive issue. And, we have even seen in some electoral campaign, political party clearly indicating that if they win or join a coalition government, they will stop, or resume the funding to the agency depending on, which means that today, I always follow domestic or donor-based election with some anxiety, because depending on who will win, we will know whether the support will continue or be discontinued.

Aloudat

And, let me come back on something you said. You said they suspended the funding out of precaution...

Lazzarini 

Yes.

Aloudat

That seems too benevolent. You've denied it. It's been debunked multiple times. Did they actually believe that UNRWA was fully infiltrated by Hamas and they were precautious about it, or was that another reason, political prudence, or prejudices in…because it's not only about UNRWA, it's about the same countries have unequivocally supported Israel, despite the evidence and despite the dead people, despite the, you know, constant assault. Is it precaution, or is it something else?

Lazzarini

Well, I mean, it can be both. First precaution, because you never know if you're a member of the government, how your parliament will react. So, you take a precautionary decision, and so you will see after that how to handle the reaction of the parliamentaries. I have been in a number of parliaments over the last few years, you can really feel that UNRWA, Israel, Palestine, is a deeply emotional issue and a polarising issue. Now, what do people believe in? Sometimes they just believe in what they want to believe in. So, on one hand, you have the information being provided by the government of Israel through the embassy saying that the agency is completely infiltrated, and after that, you have the agency saying: well, tell us how we are infiltrated, because we have a zero tolerance policy that we are implementing, but you never provided any substantiated information which would lead us to believe that we have been infiltrated. So, the information is being debunked. Question is, what do you want to believe?

Aloudat

And, this is interesting, what do you want to believe? Because we think sometimes of politics as a rational thing, and we ignore that it is affected by individuals, by people who seek something entirely different. And, just the example that jumps to mind, Switzerland suspended funding in this wave, but it also did that before to UNRWA. In 2019, if I'm not mistaken. You talked about facing increased anxiety watching news about elections in European countries. I do too, for this and multiple other reasons, including being someone with a Middle Eastern accent who lives in Europe, and don't want to be, you know, in a harsher situation. Do you believe Europe is going politically in a place where we need to worry vis-a-vis their position towards the world?

Lazzarini

You know, it's difficult to answer this question. We have seen a growing lack of tolerance, of solidarities, and countries being more and more - how do we say I forget my -

Aloudat

Yes. I mean...Introverted.

Lazzarini

Introverted, and more nationalistic.

Aloudat 

Yes, and I mean it's not a shock since Brexit and the first Trump administration, and it is becoming more and more common.

Lazzarini

You know, but beyond, what's really worrying is how political leaders are questioning the rule-based order we have inherited from World War Two. Of course, it required some re-equilibrium, because there are, you know, parts of the world who are not represented in this – properly – in this rule-based order. But it still does not mean that we should put aside all the international law that we have inherited without having an alternative system in place. Because today, we keep hearing about a disregard of international law. We talk about rupture, but without a proper alternative. And, the alternative right now on the table is nothing else than a world without any rules, where bullying and intimidation prevails, and it can only lead to more disorder basically.

Aloudat 

You've talked about this before, about the rules-based order and its collapse, and I think what you just said now, we can unpack it a little bit. You've said that the failures in Gaza of this multilateral system have enabled war outside international legal boundaries, one that is now spreading across and beyond the Middle East. We're seeing Iran now which is widely accepted as, I mean, illegal war of aggression by Israel and the United States. The same is the case in Lebanon. And, at many levels, I agree with you on, we don't have an alternative to IHL, but it's not being followed at all. We've talked to several legal scholars on this show about what's the alternative. How could we actively move towards an alternative when we have wars that are being waged more and more easily? I was just old enough to remember 1991, the first Gulf War. They actually put some effort, if I remember right, in creating a coalition of the willing, and having a bit of justification, and even Afghanistan, like they invented legal frameworks, enemy combatants, to pretend to be within a legal framework. Pete Hegseth, the Minister of so-called War of the U.S., prayed on TV, and the prayer was for unleashing overwhelming violence on all, and he used the word violence. I accept that we need to keep what we have until we have something better. But, is there actually a way of compelling governments to follow IHL at this point?

Lazzarini

The problem is not IHL. The problem is that the breaches have no consequences, and you can breach international humanitarian law in total impunity. I think we need more country - or maybe a coalition of the willing - determined to revitalise what IHL means that, yes, we have rules, but if these rules are disrespected, there should be consequences. We are very good at that normally...

Aloudat

Well, when it's not…

Lazzarini

Well, it's not a menu. It's not, as we say in French, a géométrie variable. The problem is that the way it is implemented today, gives a perception that it is unequally implemented. If you go back to Palestine, we keep hearing all the time: we are progressives, except for Palestine. Human rights, yes, but except for Palestine. No, there is no exception. Nothing can be dealt in isolation. Because if you deal in isolation, you create a precedent, and if you create a precedent, you will replicate it. That's exactly what happened in Gaza. We said the problem is not just Gaza or UNRWA, it will happen also for other organisations. That's exactly what we have seen. Other INGOs, other UN agencies, basically are dealt and treated today, the way UNRWA has been treated. We always said it's not just in OPT, the same will happen elsewhere, and this is exactly what we are witnessing, also now, elsewhere. So, the real problem is the inability to make sure that there are consequences to this act. It's a cycle, an endless cycle of impunity, and impunity will feed even more of this. We test.

Aloudat

So, why is the impunity? I mean, you're absolutely right. It is a géométrie variable. I cannot imagine Omar al-Bashir, the ex-president of Sudan, who was pursued by the ICC – by the International Criminal Court – or Gaddafi, or Putin, flying through Italy and French airspace, and just being let pass by. Netanyahu did that repeatedly on his way to speak to the U.S. government. I mean, yes, there is impunity. Impunity that is insistent and systematic. You talk to people in those circles. People who make those decisions. First, what's the argument for the full impunity of Israel now? And second, is it really not clear to politicians in Europe that what they're doing will backfire? Is it that they're not looking beyond the immediate, or is it that the whole thing of being fair has become too ambiguous to them.

Lazzarini

We all know what the argument is. [Has] Israel the right to defend, the right to exist, the right to be in charge of your future own security? This is usually the kind of mantra we hear to justify why we have a higher tolerance on Israeli military conduct than any other countries. That's what we hear. Now, can it be the case? No, it should not. Rules have laws for everyone. There is no exception. No country can be, or should be, above this. But discussions are very difficult. Europe doesn't have a unified political stand when it comes to this. There have been fierce discussion among member states about the trade agreement. Are the condition of the trade agreement being respected or not? Despite assessment conducted by the Commission, member states could not agree on a qualified majority to decide some suspension. So, it is - there is no doubt - a real divisive issue.

Aloudat

And, you function as UNRWA within a humanitarian system, both the UN agencies that provide humanitarian aid, and the wider system. You mentioned how the impunity in dealing with UNRWA has affected everybody else, and now we have 38 agencies that were denied registration by Israel to work in the Occupied Territories. How was the support you've received from the rest of the system as an organisation that was primarily and consistently targeted both by violence and by rhetoric, did you get what you needed from the UN system or from the humanitarian system at large?

Lazzarini 

We had very strong and outspoken support from the Secretary General. He was certainly one of our main advocates when it comes to UNRWA, and UN agencies, for a long time, relied on the agency platform and footprint in places like Gaza, and were also very much aware that if this would collapse, it would also seriously undermine their ability to operate. So, I would say yes, but we should never forget that the same UN agencies are also under pressure, including from Israel, constantly threatening anyone partnering or cooperating with UNRWA to be prevented in the future, to bring supply in, or even to operate. So, these threats are constant, but despite these threats, the UN remains one UN operation in Gaza.

Aloudat

And, do I understand you right in what has happened to UNRWA set the precedent for what has happened to the humanitarian organisations that were deregistered? Israel has effectively eliminated the possibility of providing traditional, at least, international humanitarian aid. What happens next, now the borders are closed again under the pretense of the war with Iran?

Lazzarini

What should happen next is the implementation of the peace plan, which is on the table, but clearly, for the time being, it sounds to be stalled, and even the crossing of the supply to be brought into Gaza today is not anymore at the same level than it even was a few weeks ago, before the war on Iran started. But the real question is, what is the future of Gaza? Will Gaza still belong to the Gazan? Will this still be a land for them? And, will they still be connected to the West Bank? And here, we go back to the future of Palestinian aspiration for self-determination. Are we still talking about self-determination, or will the Palestinian in the future shift this language into calling for equal rights? That tension between self-determination and equal rights emerged already before October 2023, but if you look at the situation today, with a prospect having brought us even further away, that kind of discussion might also re-emerge.

Aloudat 

And, again to be sure I understand you, and to tell our listeners, when you talk about equal rights, you're talking about a single state where all citizens have equal rights?

Lazzarini

I talk exactly about this, equal rights. If you have a struggle for equal rights, it means that rights are not equal for the time being, and that you have a number of policies in place discriminating anti-Palestinian.

Aloudat 

You mentioned that this is an emerging and intense question, but it's also not new. It was raised around, and after, Oslo Accords, and Edward Said famously wrote about the two-state solution not being a realistic one, nearly 30 years ago, and that an actual solution would be a single state for all people who live in it. It is an idea that has been sidelined in favour of the potential for two-state solutions, which you say is further now than any time in the past. I want to ask you one more thing about UNRWA, in January, you sent staff a message describing a last-resort measure, which is cutting salaries by 20 percent, starting February, and termination of more than 600 contracts. Can you tell us about the cause and effects of this decision?

Lazzarini

First of all, our level of funding is back to what it used to be 15 years ago. So, the agency has been under constant financial crisis at least over the last six years under my tenure. We had in 2025 already, because of some decrease of funding, put in place a number of austerity measure, but we were also the only one who did not cut into our workforce. You might remember that the broader, I would say, funding environment for development and humanitarian organisation has drastically shifted as from 2025. We succeeded to do the year without any cuts. But at the beginning of the year, I had – based on all the best information that we have coming from our donor, and the expectation on what they will be able or not to provide to the agency – already more than 200 million of a cashflow shortfall, money missing to cover the salaries. So, there was absolutely no way that we ignore this, bearing in mind that the Arab world has significantly decreased the contribution to the agency, one reason also because they do not necessarily want to annoy the current U.S. administration, and we have seen that we have reached a ceiling when it comes to more traditional donors in Europe, in Canada, Australia, Japan, and that the trend would even be maybe more questioning about the future commitment vis-a-vis the agency, because of the overall political landscape. So, based on this, I had no other choice than to take, again, a difficult decision. It pains me to do it at the end of my tenure. I would much prefer to reward my staff for all what they have done over the last two, three years, rather than to be forced to decrease the salaries by 20 percent, and decrease the services. Now, by taking this decision, we can reverse it very easily, if we receive additional or new funding. I have written to the member of the General Assembly, and I have asked and urged that the agency be considered as a real asset for the success of any future peace plan, which means safeguard the operation space of the agency like ours in the context of Gaza, see us as part of the solution, and not part of the problem, and do not repeat what we have done in Iraq in 2003, when we were dismantling the entire civil administration, because we represent this workforce, the expertise, and the community trust when it comes to these basic services. So, if this message is endorsed and supported, that would also mean that funding would resume. 

Aloudat

And, you're making a distinction subtly, and I want the listeners to understand that, because you are part of the humanitarian effort over the past three years, and a significant one, but you mentioned it before, UNRWA is not, effectively, an emergency response organisation. When other organisations like MSF, for example, talk about the number of consultations they are seeing, this is mostly an emergency response. What you do is the basic services that other organisations don't usually do, and often can't do. The education is obviously one of them, but even in healthcare, the clinics of UNRWA have always been the day-to-day running – the health system effectively – of Palestinians in several countries, and this is not replaceable, at least not easily, by the existing humanitarian system, even if they get more funding, let alone by private contractors.

Lazzarini

That is correct, and that's the reason why I keep saying, you know, there was always this discussion about: is UNRWA replaceable or not replaceable? And, we heard a lot at the beginning of the war, UNRWA is irreplaceable. But what I'm saying is we are replaceable, but we are replaceable by a genuinely empowered and capacitated Palestinian institution. And, I think here there is an opportunity, we can bring back the temporary nature of the agency through a genuine commitment to a peace plan during a transition during which we would, on one hand, continue to provide our services, and at the same time, contribute to build the future capacity of the Palestinian institution, so that at the end of the process, we have a recipient to take over our activities. The solution is not another UN agency, or another NGOs, because these are not lasting solutions. The lasting solution is to properly, generally, invest in future public institution taking over these activities.

Aloudat

Thank you. That answers, actually, one of my questions to come was, will UNRWA survive, and should it survive? Because that replaces the rhetorical argument of: UNRWA is replaceable by other NGOs, or by private actors, into talking about UNRWA is a public service that should be replaced by Palestinian institutions, in a peace process that creates them and empowers them. Philippe, can I talk about you for a moment? How...

Lazzarini

That's difficult.

Aloudat

It's not the most instinctive thing to talk about – oneself – but has the job changed you? And how did it change you? You're someone who has 35 years of experience in the humanitarian sector. You worked in many emergencies. Was this different? 

Lazzarini

It has certainly been the most brutal experience I had in my career, despite the fact that I have been in very, very desperate contexts in the past, like the genocide in Rwanda and so on. I have, as you know, been under calls for resignation, especially in '24, for which I have always been very clear that I would do it, only if I had the belief that this would help the organisation. But I was also very much aware that the calls, or the attack, have never really been personal, but were on the function that UNRWA was fulfilling. So, it was not necessarily on Philippe Lazzarini, but it was on the Commissioner-General. And I think I have really learned over the last few years to dissociate myself from the function that I was fulfilling. That’s something I never thought I would be capable to do, but that was the only way for me to go through this tragical storm.

Aloudat

I mean, the toll of working in a situation like this, the constant onslaught on Palestinians in the past years when you have this responsibility, and here, not talking about you only, I'm talking about the whole range of staff in UNRWA, this is unbearable. How do you help people in UNRWA survive the – let alone the bombs and bullets – but the constant pressure of facing a mission that seems to be increasingly difficult, because of the actions of others, whether they were perpetrators, or complicit, or supporters, or...what sort of help do people need in your organisation?

Lazzarini

It all depends on where the people are, and what have they experienced. Clearly, the needs of the people who are in Gaza, having lost everything, having lost a family member, their houses, and not seeing any future anymore. Their needs are completely different than colleagues who are not in Gaza but supposed to work with them, and provide the support, and here you have, for many, a feeling of guilt, of powerless. People wondering what kind of difference they can do or not do. But in the other hand, what I have been completely stunned and amazed in my interaction with the colleagues in the field is, despite the fact that they are in grief, exhausted, and have witnessed constant atrocities, and despite that they are still grateful, because you try to shed light to their suffering. You try to convey their voices. They will try to pool all their anger and resentment on the leadership of the organisation, and especially after some of the very difficult decisions we were forced to take, but even despite that, you continue to hear people in an extraordinary, dignified way that they are thankful because they are not completely forgotten.

Aloudat

There were many stories like that. I know colleagues and friends who were international humanitarian staff in Gaza in the early days of the war, and when the evacuation from the north, and their Palestinian colleagues left their families to make sure that the international staff were evacuated safely, and people continue their graceful recognition that despite everything, as you say, it's not forgotten, and I think that is absolutely important. The last question I want to ask you, what should humanitarian organisations, the humanitarian system, do now, vis-a-vis what's happening in Palestine, and what advice would you give your successor, the next Commissioner-General of UNRWA?

Lazzarini 

We have seen over the last two, three years, kind of a slippery slope, and a tension between humanitarian principles, and being operational and present with the people in Gaza. One of the questions has always been: how far do we go in making sure we can stay in Gaza? How much advocacy will you do or not do? How much are you part of the narrative of the people of Gaza, or you are part of a different narrative? And, I think we have to be careful not to be manipulated. It's important that we be with the people, but it's important that we be with the people, if we can act independently, and in total impartiality, and with a sense of humanity. And, you know, I was the first one paying the price for talking. But, would I stop talking in order to be present but not be able to report back on what's going on, and to keep a blind eye? Certainly not.

Aloudat

Thank you very much for having the time with us, and for being candid and open about it. Much appreciated.

Lazzarini

You're welcome. Thank you.

 

Aloudat

Thank you for listening to Rethinking Humanitarianism. Our show is produced, edited and mixed by Freddie Boswell, with sound engineering by Tevin Sudi, and editorial oversight provided by Irwin Loy. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. Please rate and subscribe to our show, wherever you get your podcasts. Also consider becoming a member of The New Humanitarian to help us continue reporting from the heart of crises. Go to www.thenewhumanitarian.org to find out more.