IRIN Interview with RCD-ML official Mbusa Nyamwisi

Mbusa Nyamwisi, an influential figure in the Congolese rebel movement in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, has had leadership wrangles with the heads of both the Rassemblement congolais pour la democratie-Mouvement de liberation (RCD-ML) and of the Front pour la liberation du Congo (FLC), and yet remains a key ally of Uganda, which backs both rebel groups. On 4 June, a section of former RCD-ML/Kisangani forces, who were guarding his residence in Beni, fought running battles with FLC forces - though the RCD-ML is supposedly a constituent element of the FLC since the January 2001 merger of the RCD-ML/Kisangani and Jean-Pierre Bemba’s Mouvement de liberation du Congo (MLC). According to Ugandan officials, Bemba is refusing to work with Nyamwisi because of the fighting in Beni, and the situation remains fluid in the North Kivu provincial capital. Uganda invited Nyamwisi to Kampala last month (from South Africa, wher he has been since shortly after the RCD/ML and MLC merger in January) to try and work out his return to Beni in the hope of diffusing the tension there. However, Nyamwisi has renewed his demand to be recognised president of the RCD-ML/Kisangani, according to RCD foreign relations minister Bahekwa Kambale. In essence, Nyamwisi no longer recognises the existence of the FLC, according to Ugandan sources. At the same time, Wamba dia Wamba (now based in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania) still claims he is president of the RCD-ML/Kisangani, and is unwilling to work with either Bemba or Nyamwisi unless certain of his demands are met in the RCD-ML/MLC merger. This has left Uganda with a dilemma in regard to its relations with the rebel forces it backs in the Congo. IRIN interviewed Nyamwisi to try to get to the bottom of some of the divisions in the rebels’ ranks, and heard him suggest that Bemba should withdraw from North Kivu for a time to let tensions subside. Nyamwisi also said that the FLC was not very meaningful at this stage because the RCD-Kisangani intended to attend the inter-Congolese dialogue in its own right, and that the rebel group still needed Ugandan troops in eastern DRC. QUESTION: What caused the fighting between your forces and those of FLC leader Jean-Pierre Bemba in Beni in June? ANSWER: It was not my forces but part of the RCD [RCD-ML] soldiers that I was involved in training before the formation of the FLC. They were guarding my residence in Beni. The fighting took place when I was away. But what is clear is that the merger of the RCD [RCD-ML] forces and those of the MLC [Mouvement de liberation du Congo] to form the FLC [Front pour la liberation du Congo] was not yet completed. It was a complicated situation that needed careful consultation. I think it was a mistake for Bemba to attack my residence without carefully planning - although it was in order to implement the merger. The idea of disarming was okay but I think the approach was bad. This may have caused the fighting. I don’t know. The exercise had to be carefully planned. Q. Many times, your opponents say you are an anarchist. They allege you are using ethnic influence in North Kivu, because you were born there, to undermine Bemba after successfully destroying the RCD-ML/Kisangani. A. Of course the fact that I come from this region, means I have an upper hand in many things. That is just a natural feeling among the people. But it is not my intention to undermine any clear political programme. I come from Beni and I’m seen as a local politician and son of this area. Q. Do you use this for personal gain or for a broader political objective? A. First of all, on the question of Bemba, I think there was no way he could attack my home and go without facing resistance. The very fact that I was away means the guards had to put up resistance. I think, I should have been consulted and I would not have had any objection because I am part of the merger. The fact that I was not consulted means there was lack of foresight if Bemba ever thought he could do that. Some people were quick to blame me but I was far away in South Africa. The last time I talked to Bemba was in March and he had stopped calling me. So it was Bemba’s mistake to just try to disarm those RCD soldiers without planning his move. Q. What is it that accounts for your popularity in North Kivu? A. It is not a question of popularity. A strong leadership must be allowed to emerge, and this can be anybody with good programmes who is acceptable to the local population. If anybody thinks I’m popular, then that support lies with the people. What I know I have done in this region is that I have been involved in mobilisation of people politically. And some of the RCD-ML soldiers that are now part of the FLC, I’m the one who trained them. Now, under the merger, we need to work very closely with whoever heads the FLC. When that person is Bemba or somebody else we have to consult, because it is too early to control them single-handedly. Whenever they sense trouble or feel there is something wrong, these soldiers are likely to revolt or behave in ways not expected of them. And one big problem at this stage is that they are not being paid their salaries. They have to beg; this makes them angry. And when they are not paid, they can even loot. When they do this, they annoy the population. When the population is angry, they turn their wrath on the top leadership. They then begin to look for alternatives. Q. What would be your advice to Bemba if he is to steer through the troubles in this region? A. The local population sees him as an imported leader in the [North Kivu] region. He is seen not as a political leader but as a businessman. He has a task to change this perception. The Congolese know his background very well as a person brought up in a palace; people think he has come to make money. He has to show people that he has political experience. These are not my views but those of the Congolese. That is what people say and the will of the Congolese is what matters not what Uganda and the international community think of Bemba. He needs to distance himself from any activity that is likely to provoke discontent. Q. You have a penchant for power. This has made you organise a coup against Ernest Wamba dia Wamba in the RCD-ML/Kisangani. What kind of political programme would you put in place that is different from what others have done in the past? A. Whoever says that am just interested in power has not read the political feeling in eastern Congo, particularly the Kivu regions. I am a founder member of the RCD. What caused the split between our group [the RCD-ML] and that in Goma [the RCD, or RCD-Goma] is the question of leadership. I believe that for any sustainable liberation effort - whether militarily or through negotiation - a leader who really appeals to the people must be allowed to emerge. Let the Congolese people decide. If anybody tries to impose leaders on them, they will continue to reject such leaders. This will lead to endless confusion, bloodshed and real crisis. Q. Would you measure up to such a task? A. It is the Congolese who speak and if we can identify anybody that they can rally behind, then that wish should be respected. This is the biggest problem, and it is what caused the problem between some of us and Professor Wamba dia Wamba. Q. But the Congolese cannot merely decide on who that leader is without any credentials. What makes you an actor? And why does it sometimes appear that when trouble comes up, Uganda calls on you to save the situation? A. In politics, there is always room for discussion - even when you disagree. I respect the leadership of Uganda for that. They know that even people of unlike minds can work together. More importantly, I am Congolese and Uganda is only helping us. But the other thing, though not important, is that I have grown up in this region. I completed my university study in 1988 at the university of Kisangani. I studied sociology, specialising on ethnicity in the Great Lakes region, and I have been a politician all this time. I come from Beni. Maybe this is my only advantage but I don’t deliberately use it against other Congolese from other regions because we are in one struggle. If people support me because of this, it is their feeling and we all have to work out ways to do suitable things. The kinds of followers I get are not because I manipulate people. Bemba or any other leader should not try to do things in a hurry. Q. Before the formation of the FLC, Bemba demonstrated himself to be a capable leader of the MLC in Equateur. What makes it difficult for him in the North Kivu? A. I cannot speak for him but these are two different regions of Congo. I think, with the MLC, he was presiding over an area that does not have real challenges. The problems in Kivus, Ituri and other [more difficult] regions in Congo is that there are many tribes. And there are also many militia groups: the Mayi Mayi [Congolese tribal militias], [Rwandan] Interahamwe, Hutu extremists etc. Being in the Kivus is a big test for him, both as a political and military leader. He has to combine these two very carefully. I think he has already made mistakes and it will be difficult for him to correct them. That unplanned attempt to disarm my guards was a blow. It has made people to think that the FLC is not coordinated and it was fighting against itself. Q. What if you supported him? Would he then be able to stay in the Kivus successfully? A. The very fact that I accepted to sign the merger agreement means I supported him. But, with the current confusion, I think he cannot do much in Beni. People generally feel he should go back to Equateur, and I think he may have to do that to cool down the situation. It is dangerous for him to keep around in this region because no one can support him. In the Inter-Congolese dialogue, we shall go as RCD-ML/Kisangani. Bemba will also go to the dialogue as MLC. [The parties signed the Lusaka agreement, which provided for the inter-Congolese dialogue on a future political dispensation for the DRC, individually and not as the FLC.] So, if the dialogue is to take place, I think the merger is not very meaningful at this stage. Q. Why did you sign the merger in that case? A. The move was a good idea but it was hurried. The issue of the presidency must be democratic. The leader must be by consensus and must be someone who is conscious of the difficulties - a head not just in honour. I think the first mistake Bemba made was to look for honour. He likes giving instructions, yet the Congolese in this area disagree [with them]. At this stage, the Congolese want to be consulted on everything because we claim that we are out to liberate the whole country from years of dictatorship and deprivation under Mobutu [former dictator of Zaire, now DRC, Mobutu Sese Seko]. Q. So what is the way forward for the RCD-Kisangani and the MLC? A. I believe the RCD-ML/Kisangani has to operate on its own to help Uganda secure its borders. We have to work to make the Congo state as recognised internationally. We are not going to curve territories and this is why we must develop strong views, strong leadership and commit our resources to make the inter-Congolese dialogue a real success. We want the DRC to be a factor of stability in the Great Lakes region. It means that we have to be clear on who is the enemy of Uganda, Rwanda, Angola and Burundi because these are the countries that are directly affected by what goes on in the DRC. And we have to create infrastructure to be like the rest. Q. What do you think about the withdrawal of Ugandan forces from the DRC? A. It is okay, but my fear is that it could be exploited by the enemy, today and tomorrow, to do bad things. Besides this, we have the task to cool down angry people in Congo [DRC] so that some kind of peace returns to areas we control jointly with the UPDF [Uganda People’s Defence Forces]. So we still need them.