IRIN interview with Dr Ghanim Alnajjar, Independent Expert on human rights

The UN-appointed Independent Expert on human rights in Somalia, Dr Ghanim Alnajjar, has met with Somali leaders to discuss investigations into past atrocities, and the possible establishment of a human rights commission, or truth commissions. On a fact-finding mission from 28 August to 6 September, he met leaders in the capital, Mogadishu, Baidoa in southern Somalia, and Hargeysa in the self-declared state of Somaliland, northwestern Somalia. As well as discussing human rights abuses before and after the civil war broke out in 1991, Alnajjar investigated conditions at prisons, the use of child soldiers, and the development of law enforcement. With pressure now being brought to bear on the international community to investigate atrocities in Somali territories, IRIN asked the Independent Expert what the next step should be: Answer: One of the issues we raised with political leaders is the issue of past human rights violations, and we got the impression that there is enough support to pursue this case. We deal with the issue as a larger Somali scale, not north versus south. The intention is to depoliticise the issue... not as if the only past human rights violations took place in Hargeysa, although we recognise that atrocities took place there on a large scale. But the same things happened also in Mogadishu and other places. I'm already in the process of writing a letter to the UN Secretary-General and the Security Council to ask for the appointment of a committee of independent experts to investigate these allegations. Question: What difference will that make to previous recommendations? A: It's a procedure, and there is a precedent. We have the war crimes tribunals for Bosnia and Rwanda, which went through that type of process. You can't just jump to create a war crimes tribunal without investigating the case first. The Security Council will be the suitable body to do that, and they will appoint experts who will investigate the allegations, and collect enough material, and then it will go back to the Security Council. They might be of the opinion to establish a tribunal, or they might be of the opinion to have truth commissions. This is a sensitive issue within the Somali community, and I think they have different opinions about it... As for myself, I'm not recommending creating any tribunal or anything like that, I'm just asking that the procedure should start. Q: Do you think this move indicates more seriousness on the part of the international community to address human rights abuses in Somalia? A: Well, I hope so. The office of the Independent Expert is not necessarily representing the international community. The Independent Expert serves the office on a voluntary basis... If the Secretary-General takes this on board, and if the Security Council accepts this recommendation and appoints that committee, then that is a message from the international community. Q: Some strong supporters of the peace process are very nervous of the issue of human rights. They say it will be disruptive... A: This is an opinion we heard - but not widely... Most of the opinions were supportive of pursuing the case. I don't think anyone should fear that, because first of all we talk of the committee of independent experts and then decide after consultation... They will definitely be sensitive to the issue... It's important for the Somali community to know that there is no clan base in terms of investigating human rights violations. There are certain individuals who committed crimes, and these individuals have to be questioned about what they have done. It is a long process, and it is not going to happen tomorrow. Q: Do you think there will be willingness in the international community to back this? A: I have no idea. Q: Do you think governments will be prepared to look at their immigration procedures, investigate those who fled abroad - is there that sort of seriousness about Somalia? A: When we talk about accountability and war crimes now, there is an international tendency there... maybe five or six years ago it would be more difficult to discuss... We have several international tribunals... This is coupled with the establishment of the international criminal court... Belgium, [for example], allows...to take a case in a Belgian court for crimes against humanity that were committed outside Belgium. There are some countries that are considering opening up their courts for such cases, so this is a very good move on the part of the world to go in this direction. What is going to happen in Somalia? ... the recommendation I am making I felt has enough support in the Somali community, and it is not an issue where there is a sharp disagreement - although there are dissenters, and there are... even people outside the Somali community who might feel it will have a negative affect on the peace process... In Somalia we are in a unique position, with no central government which is controlling the whole country. You can have discussions with everybody and come up with the best mechanism that serves the Somali case - the model is not necessary a tribunal. Q: What did you look at in Baidoa? The last report of the Independent Expert referred to "chilling evidence" of atrocities during the civil war. A: Well, we did not go deeply into that, because the person charged with atrocities against the people of Baidoa was in Baidoa himself - Husayn Aydid [Mogadishu-based faction leader Husayn Farah Aydid, currently chairman of the southern opposition grouping, the Somali Reconciliation and Restoration Council ]. Obviously, we discussed this with Shatigadud [Baidoa military leader Hasan Muhammad Nur Shatigadud, of the Rahanwien Resistance Army] and he said, well, we did this, and he did this, its fifty-fifty. It was strange... Q: Were you able to talk to people on the ground, rather than just the leaders? A: Yes, we talked to people on the ground and to NGOs. In Baidoa they have an organisation called "isha" - an eye with one tear... I was told this was the eye that can see, but cries because it can't change things. They gave us a report which says a lot of things, and they told us a lot. I think everybody we saw in Baidoa spoke about those things, and we went to a village which was completely destroyed - razed to the ground - and [this] was done by the people who occupied Baidoa at that time. But when I was there, the same leaders were sitting in the same place, next to each other. Well, is that the way to go forward? I don't know. Q: What other issues did you discuss? A: We talked about prisons, the separation of juveniles from adults, and we got a positive response. The point is that all the authorities in all the regions we visited were very cooperative with us. They gave us access to prisons, they did not say no to anything. We were in Mogadishu for about 24 hours, and I saw Mr Abdiqassim [Salad Hassan] on my arrival, where I heard something about an incident where two boys were killed two days before our arrival.... I insisted on seeing the president before I leave. I saw him on my way to the airport. I raised this issue with him, and he said he knew about it. I told him we had been informed that the boys had been killed by a uniformed man who belonged to your [Abdiqassim's] militia. He said yes, this is correct, and we don't have concrete information... and this man had been arrested. I demanded that a proper investigation of the matter take place and the information be publicised, or at least I have to know the results. Which he accepted - he said he was really distressed about this, and he was trying to contact the father of these two, because they were brothers, eight and 10 years old. They [TNG] say it happened accidentally... they were shot near the beach. Q: What did you discuss in Hargeysa? A: I looked at was the arrest of the sultans in Hargeysa, and I also raised with Mr [Muhammad Ibrahim] Egal the case about the killing of a boy. He promised to have a proper investigation. [A boy shot in the stomach during demonstrations related to the jailing of the sultans died]... I had to meet with the sultans after the president, and they were hesitant to meet with me, because they thought I had cancelled their appointment and gone to the president first... I explained the situation, and what I had raised with the president, and that I had asked the president that these incidents should not be repeated. They were obviously happy; they responded and explained their position... Other issues raised was the inclusion of human rights in the education curriculum. On that we got a positive response from both Mr Abdiqassim and Mr Egal. Also we raised the issue of establishing a human rights commission - a body established by the government with some independent status. It would collect information on human rights, and probably in the future monitor human rights. Then we will be able to communicate with one body about all concerns... This is also an issue with the opposition, since they say they have an organisation. Q: What was Mr Egal's position on progress regarding human rights support? He has complained about the slow progress in investigating the mass graves [See IRIN WebSpecial http://www.reliefweb.int/IRIN/webspecials/somalijustice/index.phtml] A: He was not happy, not happy at all - and this is a problem where I cannot reassure him, it's not [within] my jurisdiction, it's with the executive branch of the human rights and the civil protection programme of UNDP...I think we are coming up with several proposals, trying to find someone who can fund them in training judges and all of that... You have other problems of who is going to pay the salaries, and how much they will get, and issues of bribery and corruption within the judicial system .... Q: One of the things recommended in 1999 by the previous Independent Expert was that the mass graves in Hargeysa be properly investigated. Why did that process stop? A: It didn't stop, it's still going on.... I could see a lot of progress has taken place in this regard. There is a government independent commission looking at the issue, and there is also a very active NGO. They are doing some work... We have seen a lot of progress in this regard. There are maps, locations, names, preservation for some of the sites... It's not been forgotten. One thing I did notice that was very positive was the civil society. It is really working hard and they are getting a lot of good results. Three years ago we trained some people, and now they are doing an excellent job in human rights. And I think there is a need to support pan-Somali organisations. There are two or three, but the international community is not putting the support to that type of model...it is a model that will bring people together more than the politicians, who have their own thinking and their own interests. We asked also for the ratification of the treaties, the international human rights treaties, specifically the TNG. I was informed that [the] Somaliland government had ratified the treaty on the rights of the child... Q:What is the position of an unrecognised government signing an international treaty? A: It's good for them, because they show that they are committed, but in terms of international law and UN, this has no value unfortunately... Q: It's a double standard, then - asked to ratify but told that it is worthless? A: Yes, exactly...it's an unfortunate situation where there is a contradiction between self-determination and - well, this is a shaky situation in the whole country... If you have a problem, there are certain parts of it where it is not secure, there is no civil administration, no law and order; and parts of it with civil administration, and asking to be recognised as an independent body. The international community says no, it will recognise only one single unit. For sure this brings [about] a contradictory situation... Q: How is it possible to talk to leaders in Somalia about human rights when so many have blood on their hands? A: Well , you see the problem is that those people control areas and have authority over people, so when your concern is the people, you have to try to forget about who you are talking to, and impress on them the need to respect human rights now... In international law - especially human rights norms - we always hold recognised governments responsible; but how about if a region is controlled by freedom fighters and they have, say, three or four million people under their authority? Should we just say, fine, they are not recognised, they have blood on their hands, we should not talk to them? No, within human rights, you have to deal with matters differently.... Q: Although it is obviously in the interests of some of those leaders to pay lip service to what you say, but to make sure the procedures you want to establish do not go ahead. A: Well, as far as I am concerned, most of the things I asked [for] were granted, verbally. Now the struggle and the conflict in Somalia is taking different forms, and most of them would like to go in on the political side. If that is the case, then they will have to adhere to international norms of human rights. If they want to fight, there is no chance of me having an effect. But if they say they have a charter, and they assure me they are not interested in fighting, then human rights must be part and parcel of what they are talking about. They will have to listen.