Interview with UNHCR boss Ruud Lubbers

The UN High Commissioner for Refugees, Ruud Lubbers, was in Eritrea last week as part of a four-nation African tour. Here, in an interview conducted by OCHA-Asmara for IRIN, he speaks about his first-ever visit to Eritrea and the massive repatriation of refugees from Sudan which resumed earlier this year. QUESTION: It’s your first time in Eritrea. Why haven’t you visited before? ANSWER: I didn’t visit Eritrea before because I had to visit so many countries and I was waiting until the repatriation would get some shape and substance. So this was the good moment to come here. Indeed it is a country which, we have rightly said, is fit for repatriation. After the peace agreement [with Ethiopia], we even went for the so-called cessation clause [ending refugee status for Eritreans]. It’s saying to refugees in other countries, “Eritreans, it’s time to come home”. So we are doing this repatriation campaign. I find it basically positive but frankly speaking we have two challenges: it’s going too slow, so there are hesitations with the refugees returning. Still we carry on, we think this is the best solution although it’s a voluntary return, so it’s possible certain numbers will stay, particularly in Sudan because there they are the most. The second point is we want to go further in cooperation with others, in particular with the UN Country Team, to do not only repatriation but re-integration and link it with rehabilitation and reconstruction. This is what we practise now in four countries in the world: in Sierra Leone, in Eritrea, in Afghanistan and in Sri Lanka. I have to say it’s still a bit difficult here to come on track, so we spoke with the minister of national development, to improve that situation. Q: What will happen to those who don’t want to return voluntarily and how can UNHCR guarantee their protection? A: That’s a question for the country where they stay. In the case of the Sudan where we work on programmes of local integration, there is a certain problem because the central government wants the same as the president here - repatriation of everybody. I spoke also to the governors of the two provinces neighbouring Eritrea and I have a feeling they are also interested to work with us on integration projects there. So I’m not so concerned that we will not find solutions for those people who stay there, but I think it’s fair to try first to improve the situation here, so that people come home. Q: Eritrea has not signed the Refugee Convention. Could you tell us if there have been any developments? A: Recently, I spoke in Maputo with the foreign minister and I have the feeling it’s coming through gradually. They are still speaking about their legal advisers who have to look into it. But I think it’s going to happen. I have given the president a translation [in Tigrinya] of the 1951 Convention. Q: You have emphasised that returnees should be part of the peace process, that they should be a benefit to the communities they are returning to, rather than a burden. But they are returning to a country where 60 percent of the population are living below the poverty line. These returnees are returning with assistance packages to areas where they may be living side by side with IDPs or other vulnerable groups. What can be done? A: Yes. Although UNHCR’s mandate is about refugees, when it comes to returnees, we have to include in our programmes two other populations: the IDPs and the local population. If we have schools, or some medical services, there should be some benefit of these schools or services for the other two groups. This is not a question of the mandate so much, but it’s of course important also to be effective, to link up to the other parts of the UN family and also if there are NGOs there. This is what we call the programme we have now - the IRP [Integrated Recovery Programme]. This started as a UNHCR initiative but it has been gradually accepted in the system. Q: What can Eritrea learn from other countries about this? A: What they can learn is that it can function. It has started to function in the three other pilot projects. I spoke with the minister of national development who thought that this was maybe not interesting for donor communities because they already have a lot of programmes. That might be true, but then we have to tailor it in such a way that it addresses the gaps so that it is convincing to donors. If one thinks this is too difficult, this is wrong thinking because in Sierra Leone, in Afghanistan, in Sri Lanka it’s functioning, so why not in Eritrea? Q: What would you like to see the UN Country Team doing? A: The UN Country Team I would like to see exercise full ownership of it [the IRP] so that it’s their programme, so that they are down when it doesn’t happen and proud when it does happen. That’s the basic thing. Q: How did it feel to lead a convoy of more than 900 people across the border? A: It’s special. I’ve seen it of course in other situations. For the High Commissioner for Refugees, it is the best moment. At that moment you become High Commissioner for Returnees. It’s very rewarding. These are motivated people because it’s voluntary. Many of them have been abroad for quite some time. They’re looking forward to what they can do. So this is a very good experience. People want to organise their lives in a positive way and when we spoke with a delegation of returnees, I found it interesting that the women were very clear in their opinions, very practical. Q: Are you concerned that some of the returnees may be in a kind of limbo if the demarcation process continues to be stalled? A: Not so much the people in limbo because that is limited, but I think, the consequences. It’s for real, but it’s limited. A more important point is that it might translate itself into the hesitation of people either to come back or to stay here, and of hesitations of donor communities to fund programmes, and that would be the beginning of a downward spiral. Q: And that would have implications for the IRP? A: Exactly. That’s one of the examples ... But it’s certainly a risk that this border situation and the absence of dialogue between Ethiopia and Eritrea might translate itself into stagnation and negative developments. Q: What are your impressions of Eritrea? A: I believe that this is a promising country, but the job is not done with the peace agreement. You get the impression that it is still very much based on a post-war situation in which the necessary discipline you need in war times is still the guiding principle for the development of society. At some point there has to be a transformation to energetic, creative ideas, at some time a democratic debate, so I hope that will develop.